Irrational Hatred for Law Enforcement
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12-05-2014, 04:10 AM
RE: Irrational Hatred for Law Enforcement
(11-05-2014 12:36 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  In Montgomery County where you live the possibility of irrational hatred for popo is conceivable. In PG County where I live it is completely rational. The FBI is constantly investigating them, they train their canines to bite, they beat the shit out of people just for the fuck of and then don't arrest them so as not to have it documented (I have a friend this happened to), drum up charges just to dick with you and make you go to court where the charges are dismissed because they don't show up, and are just generally corrupt. Ah PG County where the "revolving door" doesn't mean our politicians become lobbyists but rather go into the penal system. God I love this county. Big Grin

I'm in the Baltimore metro area, and I've heard some disturbing shit about Prince Georges P.D.

IIRC,they have a recent history of shooting citizen's dog's? Angry
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13-05-2014, 09:14 AM
RE: Irrational Hatred for Law Enforcement
Allow me to hypothesize about the cause for distrust of law enforcement based on my own impression of police forces.

I believe that the problem at heart is that policemen are disproportionately powerful relative to how easy they are to depose. Policemen can get away with a whole lot of shit that would land anyone in prison, but a policeman just gets a slap on the wrist, provided they are at all punished seeing as how they've got a corps of 'the city's finest' to vouch for they awesomeness and innocence.

I'd very much prefer it if they would be fired without notice if they were observed so much as thinking about pointing a gun at an innocent kid.

"But..." I hear you preparing to say; "...how will we ever be able to recruit people to the police force if they can be fired that easily?".

Indeed, my friend; maybe we shouldn't be so fucking reliant on the main selling point for joining the police force is being able to get away with fucking anything while being in a position of power in society.

The problem isn't with the individual police officers. They are mostly honest individuals trying to do their job to the best of their ability. The problem is with the system that makes rooting out the bad eggs impossible.
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13-05-2014, 09:29 AM
RE: Irrational Hatred for Law Enforcement
Imagine living in a house like that. I had heard years ago that police officers have a higher rate of divorce simply because they are used to people following their orders, and they have trouble getting that same degree of compliance from a spouse. But I'm finding conflicting info on this.

I also found this…

Two studies have found that at least 40% of police officer families experience domestic violence, (1, 2) in contrast to 10% of families in the general population.(3) A third study of older and more experienced officers found a rate of 24% (4), indicating that domestic violence is 2-4 times more common among police families than American families in general. A police department that has domestic violence offenders among its ranks will not effectively serve and protect victims in the community.5, 6, 7, 8 Moreover, when officers know of domestic violence committed by their colleagues and seek to protect them by covering it up, they expose the department to civil liability.7 (source: http://www.womenandpolicing.org/violenceFS.asp )


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13-05-2014, 10:02 AM
RE: Irrational Hatred for Law Enforcement
(13-05-2014 09:14 AM)Elcarch Wrote:  Allow me to hypothesize about the cause for distrust of law enforcement based on my own impression of police forces.

I believe that the problem at heart is that policemen are disproportionately powerful relative to how easy they are to depose. Policemen can get away with a whole lot of shit that would land anyone in prison, but a policeman just gets a slap on the wrist, provided they are at all punished seeing as how they've got a corps of 'the city's finest' to vouch for they awesomeness and innocence.

I'd very much prefer it if they would be fired without notice if they were observed so much as thinking about pointing a gun at an innocent kid.

"But..." I hear you preparing to say; "...how will we ever be able to recruit people to the police force if they can be fired that easily?".

Indeed, my friend; maybe we shouldn't be so fucking reliant on the main selling point for joining the police force is being able to get away with fucking anything while being in a position of power in society.

The problem isn't with the individual police officers. They are mostly honest individuals trying to do their job to the best of their ability. The problem is with the system that makes rooting out the bad eggs impossible.

Mostly this.

I don't hate ALL cops, just most of them.

Why you might ask?

Because I've had several interactions with the cops and every single one has been a dickbag to the extreme. Even the "friendly" interactions with cops I've had, the asshat had a chip on his shoulder. They treat everyone who isn't a cop like they're a fucking criminal and they have forgotten the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing. Even some cops I know personally, and know that they are good people in general become the biggest fuckheads when they put on a badge.

The thing is, the job has a high level of power and low level of responsibility. What kind of people do you think are attracted to a job that has nearly unlimited power with almost no accountability? It's not the nice, rural Barney Fife types. It's the meathead bullies from highschool that realized they could continue being a bully, but have no one telling them to NOT be a bully.

I was once in a bar where some cops were hanging out after a big bust. They were all complaining that no shots were fired. One guy was whining that he hasn't had an opportunity to ever shoot a "civvy". One of the older guys was consoling him and telling him that he would get his chance someday, he just had to watch for an excuse... Dodgy

"Not all cops are like that" you may say. And that is true. Not all cops are dickbags looking to murder someone. But as Phaedrus said
(27-04-2014 07:28 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  And let's not forget police who refuse to testify against other officers, even if they've clearly committed a wrongdoing. As Tim Minchin said:

Quote:If you cover for another motherfucker who's a kiddie fucker, fuck you, you're no better than the motherfucking rapist.

They pretty much all cover for their brothers in blue. And THAT makes them scumbags. Period, end of fucking story. It is rarer than a virgin unicorn to have a cop stand up to the corruption and thuglike tactics of modern police forces. And when one does pop up and speak out?? They get fired. Even for little things like speaking against quotas.

All this hate aside, I would NEVER dream of being anything but polite and courteous to a cop. And that's the most rage inducing thing of all. As a citizen, I am impotent against the abuses they can and will perpetrate against me. Not a damn thing I do or say in defense of my civil liberties or my legal rights means a damn against a police baton or Glock. So I am forced to be nice to people who have no intention of being nice to me or I risk further harm to me and mine.

My cousin made the mistake of trying to file a report against a cop that was harassing him because he was dating the cop's ex girlfriend. He went to the station to file the report and was met with open hostility and threats to throw him in jail. Eventually he gave up, but the cops didn't let it go. Instead of having one cop harassing him, he now had an entire city worth of cops harassing him. He couldn't go anywhere in that city without being constantly followed and pulled over for no reason. It took an investigation by the Ohio Bureau of Investigation to finally get them to stop, and there's still a few on the force that hold a grudge and harass him, even 10 years later.

The "thin blue line" has created an "us vs them" mentality that is institutional. It's not just a few cops here and there that have lost sight of the fact that they are servants of the people, it's the entire culture. This, combined with the over militarization of police forces has created a virtual war between the cops and the people they're supposed to be serving. "To serve and protect" has gone the way of the Dodo and until we start holding cops to a higher standard of responsibility, it will only get worse.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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13-05-2014, 10:02 AM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2014 10:19 AM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: Irrational Hatred for Law Enforcement
I probably should have reworded the title, maybe that's part of the issue.

I've tried making it very clear that I am not criticizing nor confused by the distrust of cops. I am fully aware of the deficiencies of the law enforcement system and made such clear in the OP.

I'm attacking this particular mindset where a person cannot clearly judge individual cops' performances in specific situations and paints EVERY single one under the same brushstroke under ALL circumstances. I've seen videos of cops being abusive, and I've seen videos of cops doing exactly what the situation called for. My point is that there is a group of people who will watch said videos, witness said events, and be incapable of telling the difference between a cop that is being abusive and a cop that is rightfully upholding order in as efficient and non-excessive a manner as possible. This includes situations in which the context is clear. There is simply a group of people that will label every single person in a police uniform an asshole under all circumstances with a disconnected relationship with what that officer is actually doing.

Beating a homeless man to death? Pig cops. Verbally abusing suspects? Pig cops. Failing to observe the rules of the road and crashing into another car because of it, then falsely charging the victim with causing the accident? Pig cops. Pulling somebody over for a traffic stop and giving them a ticket? Pig cops. Pulling over a pantsless woman and giving her a sobriety test in front of the dashboard camera where he clearly gestures what she is failing to do, determines she is obviously drunk, and sends her over to be patted down by a female officer rather than sexually assaulting her? Pig cops. Taking down a manic wielding a hammer that had already assaulted multiple people beforehand and is charging at the cops, but first trying to take him down by non-lethal means and only resorting to lethal force when that fails? Pig cops.

This is the type of mentality among certain people that, rather than seeing some cops as the type of role-model that we should hope are produced on a regular basis once, and if, the system is fixed, these people adhere to a principle of sweeping all of them under the same rug irregardless of each individual's behavior in the line of duty. They are all automatically assigned an asshole cop label, and nothing they can do would change these people's minds. I am not talking about some irrational discontent and mistrust of the system as a whole; I am discontent and mistrustful of it myself. I'm not talking about a mistrust of cops in general either. I'm talking about a complete inability to distinguish between the varying integrities of police officers and rather seeking to apply a universal, incorrigible label that is applied with no correlation to actual behavior in specific instances.

Not altering your judgement in accordance to circumstances is the type of inflexible bullshit that we tend to find so frustrating. It is utterly foolish to cast a label onto a specific individual that is not based on that individual's behavior but solely the actions of some of his or her associates. Such is the behavior I'm criticizing, this inability to acknowledge that good cops can exist in a mostly broken system. Are their numbers satisfactory? Of course not, but they are out there, and refusing to let go of this notion that every single cop is an asshole is a detrimental distraction from actually focusing on the cops that are issues and the problematic system which is producing them.

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13-05-2014, 10:25 AM
RE: Irrational Hatred for Law Enforcement
(13-05-2014 10:02 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  I probably should have reworded the title, maybe that's part of the issue.

I've tried making it very clear that I am not criticizing nor confused by the distrust of cops. I am fully aware of the deficiencies of the law enforcement system and made such clear in the OP.

I'm attacking this particular mindset where a person cannot clearly judge individual cops' performances in specific situations and paints EVERY single one under the same brushstroke under ALL circumstances. I've seen videos of cops being abusive, and I've seen videos of cops doing exactly what the situation called for. My point is that there is a group of people who will watch said videos, witness said events, and be incapable of telling the difference between a cop that is being abusive and a cop that is rightfully upholding order in as efficient and non-excessive a manner as possible. This includes situations in which the context is clear. There is simply a group of people that will label every single person in a police uniform an asshole under all circumstances with a disconnected relationship with what that officer is actually doing.

Beating a homeless man to death? Pig cops. Verbally abusing suspects? Pig cops. Failing to observe the rules of the road and crashing into another car because of it, then falsely charging the victim with causing the accident? Pig cops. Pulling somebody over for a traffic stop and giving them a ticket? Pig cops. Pulling over a pantsless woman and giving her a sobriety test in front of the dashboard camera where he clearly gestures what she is failing to do, determines she is obviously drunk, and sends her over to be patted down by a female officer rather than sexually assaulting her? Pig cops. Taking down a manic wielding a hammer that had already assaulted multiple people beforehand and is charging at the cops, but first trying to take him down by non-lethal means and only resorting to lethal force when that fails? Pig cops.

This is the type of mentality among certain people that, rather than seeing some cops as the type of role-model that we should hope are produced on a regular basis once, and if, the system is fixed, these people adhere to a principle of sweeping all of them under the same rug irregardless of each individual's behavior in the line of duty. They are all automatically assigned an asshole cop label, and nothing they can do would change these people's minds. I am not talking about some irrational discontent and mistrust of the system as a whole; I am discontent and mistrustful of it myself. I'm not talking about a mistrust of cops in general either. I'm talking about a complete inability to distinguish between the varying integrities of police officers and rather seeking to apply a universal, incorrigible label that is applied with no correlation to actual behavior in specific instances.

Not altering your judgement in accordance to circumstances is the type of inflexible bullshit that we tend to find so frustrating. It is utterly foolish to cast a label onto a specific individual that is not based on that individual's behavior but the solely the actions of some of his peers. Such is the behavior I'm criticizing, this inability to acknowledge that good cops can exist in a mostly broken system. Are their numbers satisfactory? Of course not, but they are out there, and refusing to let go of this notion that every single cop is an asshole is a detrimental detraction from actually focusing on the cops that are issues and the problematic system which is producing them.

The problem is that you can't separate the individual action from the sum of the whole of their actions. I'm certain that most of the cops that have harassed me or my cousin have done things that would be considered "heroic" or in line with an upstanding view of cops. But the fact remains that those types of police actions are the outlier today, not the norm. There was a local police chief that I thought I would like. I even started following him on FB. He seemed to be a stand up kinda guy who simply wanted the best for the public. Not so much... He routinely defends the actions of dirty cops. Hell, he even defended the asshats in LA that shot at two women in the wrong color/make of truck while looking for Christopher Dorner. It's fucking inexcusable and anyone who defends those types of actions simply because the perpetrators have a badge is a fucking scumbag.

A friend of mine is dating a cop. He's a nice guy who is reasonable and friendly... except when it comes to police work. Then he's a fucktarded dickbag. I've heard the man say that "civilians" should have no rights when dealing with the cops. He's lamented the fact that he's not supposed punch someone for mouthing off to him and showing him disrespect. THIS is the type of attitude that is ridiculously prevalent in the police today. THIS is why I fucking hate cops, regardless of the fact that they helped little timmy get his kitten out of the tree last week.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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13-05-2014, 10:27 AM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2014 10:32 AM by djhall.)
RE: Irrational Hatred for Law Enforcement
(13-05-2014 10:02 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  My point is that there is a group of people who will watch said videos, witness said events, and be incapable of telling the difference between a cop that is being abusive and a cop that is rightfully upholding order in as efficient and non-excessive a manner as possible. This includes situations in which the context is clear. There is simply a group of people that will label every single person in a police uniform an asshole under all circumstances with a disconnected relationship with what that officer is actually doing.
....
I am not talking about some irrational discontent and mistrust of the system as a whole; I am discontent and mistrustful of it myself. I'm not talking about a mistrust of cops in general either. I'm talking about a complete inability to distinguish between the varying integrities of police officers and rather seeking to apply a universal, incorrigible label that is applied with no correlation to actual behavior in specific instances.

I agree with the sentiment, as there are people who effectively operate on the premise that anything the police do ever is wrong, even when the specific actions taken were clearly reasonable. The question, of course, is why that happens. I think it is a reflection an underlying belief that the entire system is now abusive and illegitimate. We don't spend much time worrying about good and honest KKK members or Nazis getting judged too harshly by the acts of bad apples, because we consider the entire organization rotten to the core and anyone who wasn't of the same ilk would get the hell out. Therefore, we feel justified assuming we know enough to condemn simply from establishing voluntary association with the organization.

I think it is certainly arguable that the entire political / legal / law enforcement system has passed the tipping point and flipped from being the primary defender and protector of our citizens and their liberty and become instead the primary oppressor and abuser of our citizens and their liberty. Once that belief fully settles, people who chose to engage in law enforcement are viewed as people who voluntarily choose to wield power as agents of oppression against their fellow citizens. Once that belief fully settles, people no longer care about the fair judging of specific acts of specific officers because it is assumed if they weren't rotten to the core themselves, they would have gotten the hell out of such a corrupt and rotten and abusive line of work.

This is the problem we have created by taking law and law enforcement so far beyond the core protection of individual liberties against people we are legitimately afraid of and making it a weapon for use against people whose behavior we don't like and we are simply mad at.

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13-05-2014, 10:30 AM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2014 10:38 AM by War Horse.)
RE: Irrational Hatred for Law Enforcement
Ah, but heres the problem, when a "good cop" refuses to do anything about the bad ones, he in effect becomes a bad cop and part of that fraternity.

*edit; I was responding to Tartarus.

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13-05-2014, 11:01 AM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2014 11:04 AM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: Irrational Hatred for Law Enforcement
(13-05-2014 10:27 AM)djhall Wrote:  
(13-05-2014 10:02 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  My point is that there is a group of people who will watch said videos, witness said events, and be incapable of telling the difference between a cop that is being abusive and a cop that is rightfully upholding order in as efficient and non-excessive a manner as possible. This includes situations in which the context is clear. There is simply a group of people that will label every single person in a police uniform an asshole under all circumstances with a disconnected relationship with what that officer is actually doing.
....
I am not talking about some irrational discontent and mistrust of the system as a whole; I am discontent and mistrustful of it myself. I'm not talking about a mistrust of cops in general either. I'm talking about a complete inability to distinguish between the varying integrities of police officers and rather seeking to apply a universal, incorrigible label that is applied with no correlation to actual behavior in specific instances.

I agree with the sentiment, as there are people who effectively operate on the premise that anything the police do ever is wrong, even when the specific actions taken were clearly reasonable. The question, of course, is why that happens. I think it is a reflection an underlying belief that the entire system is now abusive and illegitimate. We don't spend much time worrying about good and honest KKK members or Nazis getting judged too harshly by the acts of bad apples, because we consider the entire organization rotten to the core and anyone who wasn't of the same ilk would get the hell out. Therefore, we feel justified assuming we know enough to condemn simply from establishing voluntary association with the organization.

I think it is certainly arguable that the entire political / legal / law enforcement system has passed the tipping point and flipped from being the primary defender and protector of our citizens and their liberty and become instead the primary oppressor and abuser of our citizens and their liberty. Once that belief fully settles, people who chose to engage in law enforcement are viewed as people who voluntarily choose to wield power as agents of oppression against their fellow citizens. Once that belief fully settles, people no longer care about the fair judging of specific acts of specific officers because it is assumed if they weren't rotten to the core themselves, they would have gotten the hell out of such a corrupt and rotten and abusive line of work.

This is the problem we have created by taking law and law enforcement so far beyond the core protection of individual liberties against people we are legitimately afraid of and making it a weapon for use against people whose behavior we don't like and we are simply mad at.

Thank you, this probably answers the meat of my originally inquiry. Everything you said makes perfect sense. Just to clarify, I never criticized assuming that most cops are assholes, just not changing that judgement if it turns out they aren't. Your statement that it is understandable to assume cops to be like their ilk because
the system itself is so rotten is completely correct.

I guess it just bothers me that even when a cop does something completely reasonable, some people will go to great lengths to portray their actions as unnecessary. Whether that cop is an asshole or not doesn't really change the fact, for example, that he was probably completely justified in shooting a suspect 11 times because he pulled out a knife in front of him and tried to stab him. Some people will fight tooth and nail over such an incident and claim it was an abuse of power because he didn't need to unload so many bullets or some other retarded excuse. As if they know how they would respond if they had a gun with 17 rounds chambered and somebody pulled out a knife RIGHT in front of them and intended to stab them. Unloading nearly the whole clip out of reflex response to a situation you weren't expecting doesn't sound that bizarre to me.

You know, like these people could have so many legitimate complaints about cops and their choosing to try and find non-existent abuses in reasonable actions they perform. They are trying to find the "asshole" action in a situation where the was no "asshole" action committed. That's what baffles me, if you want to criticize them for being assholes, then actually refer to instances where they are being assholes. Or If you want to criticize them as being assholes in general, then do that. Like what itsnotmeitsyou did when he shared the example about the one cop he knew.
But trying to search for abuses of power or flaws of character in instances where neither are being presented makes no sense. When I see a cop doing something they are supposed to, rather than thinking "they're probably pigs" I think "it's shame not more cops are like that, doing what they are supposed to and nothing more."

If somebody is an asshole, attack them for the reasons they are an asshole, don't pull at straws in situations where they acted a way any normal human would.

Maybe that's the main source of my discontent with that mentality. Consider

Anyway, I'm sorry if I've given the wrong impression to anyone. I don't think any of you are irrational for assuming most cops are assholes, I would agree with that inclination. Just don't be like the typical youtube commenting jackass that cries abuse when a cop does what anybody would expect any human being to do under similar circumstances.

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13-05-2014, 11:02 AM
RE: Irrational Hatred for Law Enforcement
(13-05-2014 10:30 AM)War Horse Wrote:  Ah, but heres the problem, when a "good cop" refuses to do anything about the bad ones, he in effect becomes a bad cop and part of that fraternity.

*edit; I was responding to Tartarus.

Agreed, I have refined my position. There has been something about the mentality that has indeed been frustrating me, it's just taken awhile to finally sort it out, and a lot of people ended up misunderstanding my actual positions. Anyway, I think I managed to clear it up in the post right above this one in response to djhall.

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