Irrational optimism
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26-01-2014, 05:16 AM
RE: Irrational optimism
(26-01-2014 02:10 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  Neoroscience pretty much disproves free will...
Wait... you're a christian who's saying that free will doesn't exist ?? wtf ?

Correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't Christianity kinda build its whole moral framework around this pseudo "Free will" ?

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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26-01-2014, 06:11 AM (This post was last modified: 26-01-2014 06:15 AM by Baruch.)
RE: Irrational optimism
Quote:diddo97
You guys seem to have no justification for being, well, extremely cheerful. It gets obnoxious sometimes.

I don't understand your original question ?

Is the only justification for being "extremely cheerful" is due to an afterlife "living forever in heaven ?"

Can not one just be extremely cheerful regardless if there is a heaven or not ?

There are many philosophers, scientists and psychologists who have discussed either why, ways or reasons to be cheerful- and there are plenty of reasons that have little to do with being religious or believing in God.

On the contrary - It is far better to be cheerful independent of needing anothers approval, whether another person or God. If cheerfulness depends on another source then it is contingent and fragile - far better to self generate cheerfulness based on optimistic interpretation of events impacting ones life. Also being "extremely cheerful" needs to be balanced - whether theistic or atheistic. It is unhealthy to live as a Pollyanna denialism of some pretty nasty things which effect ones life.

eg:
How could one by "extremely cheerful" even when religious knowing your loved ones (and most of the world) are destined for erernal Hell (not saying you believe in eternal Hell but if you did)

eg:
How can you be "extremely cheerful" knowing God is responsible for torturing children with malaria fever - killing a child every 45 seconds because He designed the mosquito & plasmodium parasite with humans as a juicy nutritious host.
Hardly a God of love - more like a sadomasochist torturer.

As an atheist I can be a humanist and help relieve these diseases with medicine which can bring cheerfulness (I work as a haem-oncologist) but I know the "natural evils" are not personal, they are just the way the universe is - and this provides profound relief.
Of course this is not unique to atheism per se but other philosophies such as the Tao or Spinosizm or certain stoic cosmologies.

To be Honest I am a "strong" atheist to any notion of a personal God (like Jesus) for the above reasons but have no problems with impersonal versions of God and in some cases just agnostic, indifferent or curious.

Even if a personal God existed (which I did once believe and was orthodox) I would launch a revolution in Hell demonstrating Gods utter injustice thereby turning Hell into a Socratic Heaven with debates, intellectual discussion and emotional cheerfulness and knowing Justice transcends the petty squabbles of a jealous God with an arbitrary will - basically a fascist dictator. I look forward to Judgment day !

I would also enjoy Hell & be cheerful because I can meet all the other intellectual infidels & heretics - just imagine updating Giordano Bruno with the latest cosmology (is he burning at the stake forever ? nasty, conversation will be difficult), Albert Einstein will be there too - how exciting Smile

Please - a moment of silence respecting the martyred for believing in rational questioning and science - Giordano Bruno, burned at the stake for heresy
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26-01-2014, 06:33 AM
RE: Irrational optimism
(25-01-2014 10:08 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  
(25-01-2014 09:42 PM)LadyJane Wrote:  It's probably one of the very few choices someone does have, actually.

So you believe in free will? Doesn't that require a source?

I don't think the second question makes any sense. Can you rephrase that?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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26-01-2014, 06:36 AM
RE: Irrational optimism
(26-01-2014 02:10 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  
(26-01-2014 01:26 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  Exactly. In most theological propositions of a god concept, determinism is a logical conclusion, negating free will.

So having a large amount to do with determining your own future is one thing to be happy about.

Neoroscience pretty much disproves free will...

No, it doesn't. The results from neuroscience change our understanding of volition, consciousness, choice, and so on. They don't, as yet, prove that we don't make choices.

Besides, I have yet to see a coherent definition of 'free will' from anyone here.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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26-01-2014, 07:07 AM
RE: Irrational optimism
(26-01-2014 06:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-01-2014 02:10 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  Neoroscience pretty much disproves free will...

No, it doesn't. The results from neuroscience change our understanding of volition, consciousness, choice, and so on. They don't, as yet, prove that we don't make choices.

Besides, I have yet to see a coherent definition of 'free will' from anyone here.

That's because there is no coherent definition.
We make choices, we have "will" - I consider it to be a real emergent property of top down causation - (emergent autonomy - call it "autonomous will") but that is deviating from the thread and a whole new topic.

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26-01-2014, 07:10 AM
RE: Irrational optimism
(26-01-2014 07:07 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
(26-01-2014 06:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, it doesn't. The results from neuroscience change our understanding of volition, consciousness, choice, and so on. They don't, as yet, prove that we don't make choices.

Besides, I have yet to see a coherent definition of 'free will' from anyone here.

but that is deviating from the thread and a whole new topic.

You must be new here.

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26-01-2014, 07:32 AM
RE: Irrational optimism
(26-01-2014 05:16 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(26-01-2014 02:10 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  Neoroscience pretty much disproves free will...
Wait... you're a christian who's saying that free will doesn't exist ?? wtf ?

Correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't Christianity kinda build its whole moral framework around this pseudo "Free will" ?

Depends on what christian you ask.

A Calvinist, for example, does not believe in free will. If you were born an atheist you were made by god for the purpose of burning in hell. At least that's how I've come to understand it.
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26-01-2014, 07:35 AM
RE: Irrational optimism
(26-01-2014 07:32 AM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  
(26-01-2014 05:16 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Wait... you're a christian who's saying that free will doesn't exist ?? wtf ?

Correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't Christianity kinda build its whole moral framework around this pseudo "Free will" ?

Depends on what christian you ask.

A Calvinist, for example, does not believe in free will. If you were born an atheist you were made by god for the purpose of burning in hell. At least that's how I've come to understand it.

Assuming that KC is accurate in his telling, for Calvinists it more like: Everybody who was ever born was made to be burned in hell. Aside from the seemingly randomly assigned individuals who are 'elect', but not necessarily Calvinists as we don't know, but either way God dun it and 'it' is everything ever. Because we said so.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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26-01-2014, 07:42 AM
RE: Irrational optimism
(26-01-2014 05:16 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(26-01-2014 02:10 AM)diddo97 Wrote:  Neoroscience pretty much disproves free will...
Wait... you're a christian who's saying that free will doesn't exist ?? wtf ?

Correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't Christianity kinda build its whole moral framework around this pseudo "Free will" ?

Uhh, when did I say I was christian? Don't assume everyone who disagrees with you to be religious...

Truth seeker.
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26-01-2014, 08:11 AM
RE: Irrational optimism
What exactly is the point of this thread?

So far looks like a hodgepodge of reactive posts without purpose.

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