Irrationality of faith
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30-05-2014, 12:51 AM
Irrationality of faith
Christians get very upset with me when I call their belief irrational. In fact they always tell me that their beliefs are more logical than atheism. They say they have so, soooo many rational reasons for their belief.

Now imagine this scenario for a minute, which I would be willing to bet happened hundreds if not thousands of times across the country last weekend. A Christian has been talking to someone for a while, working on them to convert and they invite them to church. At the end of the service they urge their friend to go up during the alter call or whatever it's called (It's been a while since I went to church).

Everyone is clapping and exclaiming and the new person gets down and prays the prayer and eats the cookie or whatever and accepts Jesus as his savior and that the bible is the inerrant word of god and devotes his life to serve God.

Everyone is ecstatic and teary eyed and afterwords they all congratulate him and urge him to attend regularly and make sure he comes to Bible study on Wednesday and ........insert sound of scratching record.....wait, what?

Isn't that something you should have done first before you decided to become a Christian? Shouldn't you have a thorough understanding of the Bible and the tenets of the religion before you dedicate your life and shouldn't the members of the church admonish you to do this before making such a life altering decision? Shouldn't they tell you to check every premise and validate every concept first and then decide?

NOOOOO, that's not the way it works according to Christians. First you have to believe and then comes the understanding. In fact they tell me it is impossible to know the truth of the bible until you accept it as true. Then if you're so inclined you get instructed on the arguments and tactics you can use to covert others. "Pretend to be interested in what the atheist has to say" (I actually saw this quote on a legitimate website for teaching techniques to convert non believers).

It's like one of those time share deals where you go and they get you liquored up and pressure you to sign on the dotted line. What do you do if you start studying the bible and you find stuff you don't really agree with or admire. What if you find blatant contradictions.

Christians, you can't tell me that faith and reason are compatible.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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30-05-2014, 01:03 AM
RE: Irrationality of faith
OOPs I meant to post this in Atheism and Theism but I guess it works fine here as well.

Long day and a late night.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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30-05-2014, 01:06 AM
RE: Irrationality of faith
"Pretend to be interested in what the atheist has to say"

Fuck. I always suspected but ... damn. Confused The word sinister comes to mind.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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30-05-2014, 01:12 AM
RE: Irrationality of faith
(30-05-2014 01:06 AM)kim Wrote:  "Pretend to be interested in what the atheist has to say"

Fuck. I always suspected but ... damn. Confused cunts

Aaaaalright, looks like I need to put my Fundy hat on again. This time, my Fundy Street Evangelist hat (yes, I was a street evangelist... I could teach the men on the outside, because it was not in a church setting, and I had the permission of my (ex) husband).

Mirror the other person. Learn what their need is. Mirror them, try to relate to them to close the gap between where they are and where you want the conversation to end up.
(How to Win Friends and Influence People 101)
Be a listener.
But be wary. Don't let Satan use them to shake your faith.
The Atheist is one of several things. One of these things is a fool, since the Bible says that "the fool says in his heart that there is no god." Another is deceived. Or possibly searching. Or perhaps a full-on deceiver.

So yeah, act interested. Try to BE interested, but keep that limited. After all, Jesus said that he sends us out like sheep among wolves, so be cautious. Don't falter, don't stumble. Don't lose faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God.


[/fundyhat]

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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30-05-2014, 01:12 AM
RE: Irrationality of faith
(30-05-2014 01:06 AM)kim Wrote:  "Pretend to be interested in what the atheist has to say"

Fuck. I always suspected but ... damn. Confused The word sinister comes to mind.

Yeah no kidding, I did a triple take. I thought it must be a satirical site but no, as far as I could tell it was legitimate.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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30-05-2014, 01:15 AM
RE: Irrationality of faith
It is very sinister, and most of those who practice it don't even see it.

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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30-05-2014, 01:22 AM (This post was last modified: 30-05-2014 01:37 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: Irrationality of faith
(30-05-2014 01:15 AM)Charis Wrote:  It is very sinister, and most of those who practice it don't even see it.

I have come to believe that the majority of these people don't understand the arguments they use. I think they have just accepted them on faith. They've been told that these arguments are valid and unassailable and they've just accepted it. Usually they can't even answer the most basic objections to them. At least the ones who come to my house can't. I had one of them tell me that men have one less rib than women have and this proves the bible is correct.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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30-05-2014, 01:37 AM
RE: Irrationality of faith
When they're actually USING arguments, it's often based on info, but rather sketchy and/or incomplete (or patently false or misrepresented) info.

Basically, they're putting too much faith in the people who are teaching them this stuff. After all, many of them are implicitly trained to not challenge the authorities in the church. They may give lip service to Matthew 18 and stuff, but in practice? Don't be challenging your authorities.
And if you challenge them on what they're saying re: evolution, there a very real risk of you sounding to them as if you are arguing FOR the evolution viewpoint... and that's, like, burning at the stake territory there.

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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30-05-2014, 10:58 AM (This post was last modified: 30-05-2014 11:02 AM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: Irrationality of faith
(30-05-2014 12:51 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  NOOOOO, that's not the way it works according to Christians. First you have to believe and then comes the understanding. In fact they tell me it is impossible to know the truth of the bible until you accept it as true. Then if you're so inclined you get instructed on the arguments and tactics you can use to covert others. "Pretend to be interested in what the atheist has to say" (I actually saw this quote on a legitimate website for teaching techniques to convert non believers).

That IS the way it's supposed to work, believe first, then understand. That's what it means to HAVE FAITH. That's what the Bible instructs the believer to do, not to construct presuppositional, faux pas logical arguments to validate a faith-based belief.

Which is why both their commitment to converting others and their stance on rationality supporting their belief are baffling. If a prerequisite for understanding is to already believe, then trying to get other people to understand in order to believe makes no sense and is a futile endeavor by default. Therefore, since the beliefs are based upon faith, you can't rely on empirical evidence or logic to accept the belief in the first place, for the purposes of such tools are designed towards understanding. Since you also won't come to the conclusion apropos to nothing, the only option left is personal revelation. Personal revelation holds no sway with anybody that isn't the receiver of the message.

Proselytizers that proselytize to non-believers in order to convert them are completely invalidating what it means to "have faith." If you wish to enrich somebody's understanding on the topic, they already need to believe in it to begin with. Faith cannot supplant logic or empirical evidence in the realm of interpersonal interactions since it is inherently an intrapersonal process.

I guess I'm trying to say I miss Kestrel. Weeping

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31-05-2014, 11:24 AM
RE: Irrationality of faith
(30-05-2014 12:51 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Christians get very upset with me when I call their belief irrational. In fact they always tell me that their beliefs are more logical than atheism. They say they have so, soooo many rational reasons for their belief.

Now imagine this scenario for a minute, which I would be willing to bet happened hundreds if not thousands of times across the country last weekend. A Christian has been talking to someone for a while, working on them to convert and they invite them to church. At the end of the service they urge their friend to go up during the alter call or whatever it's called (It's been a while since I went to church).

Everyone is clapping and exclaiming and the new person gets down and prays the prayer and eats the cookie or whatever and accepts Jesus as his savior and that the bible is the inerrant word of god and devotes his life to serve God.

Everyone is ecstatic and teary eyed and afterwords they all congratulate him and urge him to attend regularly and make sure he comes to Bible study on Wednesday and ........insert sound of scratching record.....wait, what?

Isn't that something you should have done first before you decided to become a Christian? Shouldn't you have a thorough understanding of the Bible and the tenets of the religion before you dedicate your life and shouldn't the members of the church admonish you to do this before making such a life altering decision? Shouldn't they tell you to check every premise and validate every concept first and then decide?

NOOOOO, that's not the way it works according to Christians. First you have to believe and then comes the understanding. In fact they tell me it is impossible to know the truth of the bible until you accept it as true. Then if you're so inclined you get instructed on the arguments and tactics you can use to covert others. "Pretend to be interested in what the atheist has to say" (I actually saw this quote on a legitimate website for teaching techniques to convert non believers).

It's like one of those time share deals where you go and they get you liquored up and pressure you to sign on the dotted line. What do you do if you start studying the bible and you find stuff you don't really agree with or admire. What if you find blatant contradictions.

Christians, you can't tell me that faith and reason are compatible.



Actually, faith may be more rational than it seems, from an evolutionary perspective.
The human brain may have evolved with a strong tendency to see a "god" or "fate" at work, as a vestigial byproduct of socialization/civilization.

This book covers what I'm talking about:

[Image: 6892157355_9a528ba1bc_z.jpg]
http://www.amazon.com/Belief-Instinct-Ps...sse+bering


Obviously, this doesn't mean that it is *logical* to believe in a creator, just that it is *understandable.*
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