Irrationality of faith
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28-06-2014, 10:25 PM
RE: Irrationality of faith
(28-06-2014 10:13 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(26-06-2014 05:50 PM)Ecce Homo Wrote:  With all due respect sir, in your attempt to argue that faith and reason are incompatible, you have shown by the very presentation of your argument that you believe faith and reason are in at least one way compatible. Your belief that the deliverances of reason can present us with a true understanding of the nature of reality is itself a matter of faith, not reason. Whenever you attempt to reason about anything, i.e. that faith and reason are incompatible, you are doing so on faith. Thus you have to assume faith and reason are compatible in order to argue they are not compatible. Thus your statement is self-defeating.

No I'm not. Reason does not require faith. Reason requires several things, all of which every normal Human has at his disposal. It requires sense perception, a brain capable of integrating sense perception into units or percepts and a conceptual faculty capable of isolating groups of percepts by their similarities to form concepts and logic to identify any contradictions and fix them. Reason is the faculty which identifies and integrates the data brought to us by the senses. Faith is no part of the process. Faith dispenses with the need to identify and integrate. It is a shortcut to knowledge.

I do not have faith in reason. I have a valid starting point for knowledge, the axioms existence, consciousness and identity. In addition to that I have the axiom of the primacy of existence and an objective theory of concepts to validate reason as the only means of gaining knowledge.

Only a person who equates rationalism (deduction from a priori concepts) with reason could make the statement that faith and reason are synonymous.

"Argument" from Solipsism coming up in 3...2...1...

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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02-07-2014, 04:12 PM
RE: Irrationality of faith
(28-06-2014 09:50 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(26-06-2014 05:50 PM)Ecce Homo Wrote:  With all due respect sir, in your attempt to argue that faith and reason are incompatible, you have shown by the very presentation of your argument that you believe faith and reason are in at least one way compatible. Your belief that the deliverances of reason can present us with a true understanding of the nature of reality is itself a matter of faith, not reason. Whenever you attempt to reason about anything, i.e. that faith and reason are incompatible, you are doing so on faith. Thus you have to assume faith and reason are compatible in order to argue they are not compatible. Thus your statement is self-defeating.

Oh, look at all the wishful thinking. Reason is not a matter of "faith" at all -- and your attempt to denigrate reason by comparing it to your "faith" is an admission of just how little you have to go on, as I posted before and you apparently ignored (there really is nothing you can say anyway) -- Our confidence in reason and evidence is based on confirmed confidence. It WORKS, and your faith doesn't.

We have heard this nonsense before from dozens if not hundreds of delusional idiots.

You and I are both confident that our cognitive faculties enable us to relate to reality as it is. But we cannot give as a reason for this confidence, anything that is based upon reason, for to do so would be to argue in a circle. Thus, you cannot argue that reason works because in the process of doing so, you are using reason, thus rendering your argument circular.

Beliefs like the belief in the deliverances of reason, or the reliability of our cognitive faculties, or the laws of logic are what philosophers call "properly basic beliefs". They are beliefs that are the foundation of other beliefs a person might have but are themselves simply taken to be true or axiomatic.

Thus what Chesterton said is true. We cannot prove reason by using reason.

Most people do not think about this and never even question the deliverances of reason. In this it is seen that exercising faith is something that is natural to us as human beings.
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02-07-2014, 04:14 PM
RE: Irrationality of faith
(30-05-2014 12:51 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Christians get very upset with me when I call their belief irrational. In fact they always tell me that their beliefs are more logical than atheism. They say they have so, soooo many rational reasons for their belief.

Now imagine this scenario for a minute, which I would be willing to bet happened hundreds if not thousands of times across the country last weekend. A Christian has been talking to someone for a while, working on them to convert and they invite them to church. At the end of the service they urge their friend to go up during the alter call or whatever it's called (It's been a while since I went to church).

Everyone is clapping and exclaiming and the new person gets down and prays the prayer and eats the cookie or whatever and accepts Jesus as his savior and that the bible is the inerrant word of god and devotes his life to serve God.

Everyone is ecstatic and teary eyed and afterwords they all congratulate him and urge him to attend regularly and make sure he comes to Bible study on Wednesday and ........insert sound of scratching record.....wait, what?

Isn't that something you should have done first before you decided to become a Christian? Shouldn't you have a thorough understanding of the Bible and the tenets of the religion before you dedicate your life and shouldn't the members of the church admonish you to do this before making such a life altering decision? Shouldn't they tell you to check every premise and validate every concept first and then decide?

NOOOOO, that's not the way it works according to Christians. First you have to believe and then comes the understanding. In fact they tell me it is impossible to know the truth of the bible until you accept it as true. Then if you're so inclined you get instructed on the arguments and tactics you can use to covert others. "Pretend to be interested in what the atheist has to say" (I actually saw this quote on a legitimate website for teaching techniques to convert non believers).

It's like one of those time share deals where you go and they get you liquored up and pressure you to sign on the dotted line. What do you do if you start studying the bible and you find stuff you don't really agree with or admire. What if you find blatant contradictions.

Christians, you can't tell me that faith and reason are compatible.

Well, to non-religious people of course it's irrational! You have to believe in it in the first place. That's why we call it faith, because their is no objective evidence!
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02-07-2014, 04:21 PM
RE: Irrationality of faith
(28-06-2014 10:13 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(26-06-2014 05:50 PM)Ecce Homo Wrote:  With all due respect sir, in your attempt to argue that faith and reason are incompatible, you have shown by the very presentation of your argument that you believe faith and reason are in at least one way compatible. Your belief that the deliverances of reason can present us with a true understanding of the nature of reality is itself a matter of faith, not reason. Whenever you attempt to reason about anything, i.e. that faith and reason are incompatible, you are doing so on faith. Thus you have to assume faith and reason are compatible in order to argue they are not compatible. Thus your statement is self-defeating.

No I'm not. Reason does not require faith. Reason requires several things, all of which every normal Human has at his disposal. It requires sense perception, a brain capable of integrating sense perception into units or percepts and a conceptual faculty capable of isolating groups of percepts by their similarities to form concepts and logic to identify any contradictions and fix them. Reason is the faculty which identifies and integrates the data brought to us by the senses. Faith is no part of the process. Faith dispenses with the need to identify and integrate. It is a shortcut to knowledge.

I do not have faith in reason. I have a valid starting point for knowledge, the axioms existence, consciousness and identity. In addition to that I have the axiom of the primacy of existence and an objective theory of concepts to validate reason as the only means of gaining knowledge.

Only a person who equates rationalism (deduction from a priori concepts) with reason could make the statement that faith and reason are synonymous.

You cannot use reason to prove reason. If you do you are arguing in a circle.

When you make a statement like, "my reasoning is accurate and reliable because (insert whatever argument you like)", you are using reason to prove reason and thus are arguing in a circle which is fallacious.

Thus, like the belief in the laws of logic, or the reliability of our cognitive faculties, belief in the deliverances of reason are simply assumed as properly basic. You rely on all of the above and trust in them without being able to prove them. That is what makes them axiomatic.

Human beings are so accustomed to acting on faith in their day to day lives, that doing so largely goes undetected. Most people never give thought to how many things they simply believe things to be true without being able to prove them true. Acting on faith is second nature to all of us.
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02-07-2014, 07:51 PM
RE: Irrationality of faith
(02-07-2014 04:12 PM)Ecce Homo Wrote:  
(28-06-2014 09:50 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Oh, look at all the wishful thinking. Reason is not a matter of "faith" at all -- and your attempt to denigrate reason by comparing it to your "faith" is an admission of just how little you have to go on, as I posted before and you apparently ignored (there really is nothing you can say anyway) -- Our confidence in reason and evidence is based on confirmed confidence. It WORKS, and your faith doesn't.

We have heard this nonsense before from dozens if not hundreds of delusional idiots.

You and I are both confident that our cognitive faculties enable us to relate to reality as it is.

Really? You think so? I have confidence that my senses will give me as close an approximation of reality as they are capable of, but I am also aware of their limitations.


Quote: But we cannot give as a reason for this confidence, anything that is based upon reason, for to do so would be to argue in a circle.

Oh, yes I can, and if you would like to disprove my confidence, we can both go to the rim of the Grand Canyon, and when we both agree that our senses tell us that it's one helluva drop to the bottom, you can DISPROVE my confidence by jumping off the rim and flying.


Quote: Thus, you cannot argue that reason works because in the process of doing so, you are using reason, thus rendering your argument circular.

I am using reason backed by evidence. Big fucking difference.


Quote:Beliefs like the belief in the deliverances of reason, or the reliability of our cognitive faculties, or the laws of logic are what philosophers call "properly basic beliefs". They are beliefs that are the foundation of other beliefs a person might have but are themselves simply taken to be true or axiomatic.

Thus what Chesterton said is true. We cannot prove reason by using reason.

EVIDENCE. And again, as TS pointed out, you are conflating and equivocating reason with "rationalism".


Quote:Most people do not think about this and never even question the deliverances of reason. In this it is seen that exercising faith is something that is natural to us as human beings.

Not a bit. The difference is that faith comes in with a total lack of EVIDENCE.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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02-07-2014, 07:53 PM
RE: Irrationality of faith
(02-07-2014 04:21 PM)Ecce Homo Wrote:  
(28-06-2014 10:13 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  No I'm not. Reason does not require faith. Reason requires several things, all of which every normal Human has at his disposal. It requires sense perception, a brain capable of integrating sense perception into units or percepts and a conceptual faculty capable of isolating groups of percepts by their similarities to form concepts and logic to identify any contradictions and fix them. Reason is the faculty which identifies and integrates the data brought to us by the senses. Faith is no part of the process. Faith dispenses with the need to identify and integrate. It is a shortcut to knowledge.

I do not have faith in reason. I have a valid starting point for knowledge, the axioms existence, consciousness and identity. In addition to that I have the axiom of the primacy of existence and an objective theory of concepts to validate reason as the only means of gaining knowledge.

Only a person who equates rationalism (deduction from a priori concepts) with reason could make the statement that faith and reason are synonymous.

You cannot use reason to prove reason. If you do you are arguing in a circle.

When you make a statement like, "my reasoning is accurate and reliable because (insert whatever argument you like)",

---because EVIDENCE.


Quote: you are using reason to prove reason and thus are arguing in a circle which is fallacious.

Not at all.


Quote:Thus, like the belief in the laws of logic, or the reliability of our cognitive faculties, belief in the deliverances of reason are simply assumed as properly basic.

And here you go equivocating the word BELIEF as well. FAIL.


Quote: You rely on all of the above and trust in them without being able to prove them. That is what makes them axiomatic.

They are ALWAYS up for scrutiny.


Quote:Human beings are so accustomed to acting on faith in their day to day lives, that doing so largely goes undetected.
Most people never give thought to how many things they simply believe things to be true without being able to prove them true. Acting on faith is second nature to all of us.

Egregious equivocation of the word FAITH.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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02-07-2014, 09:20 PM
RE: Irrationality of faith
(02-07-2014 04:21 PM)Ecce Homo Wrote:  
(28-06-2014 10:13 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  No I'm not. Reason does not require faith. Reason requires several things, all of which every normal Human has at his disposal. It requires sense perception, a brain capable of integrating sense perception into units or percepts and a conceptual faculty capable of isolating groups of percepts by their similarities to form concepts and logic to identify any contradictions and fix them. Reason is the faculty which identifies and integrates the data brought to us by the senses. Faith is no part of the process. Faith dispenses with the need to identify and integrate. It is a shortcut to knowledge.

I do not have faith in reason. I have a valid starting point for knowledge, the axioms existence, consciousness and identity. In addition to that I have the axiom of the primacy of existence and an objective theory of concepts to validate reason as the only means of gaining knowledge.

Only a person who equates rationalism (deduction from a priori concepts) with reason could make the statement that faith and reason are synonymous.

You cannot use reason to prove reason. If you do you are arguing in a circle.

When you make a statement like, "my reasoning is accurate and reliable because (insert whatever argument you like)", you are using reason to prove reason and thus are arguing in a circle which is fallacious.

Thus, like the belief in the laws of logic, or the reliability of our cognitive faculties, belief in the deliverances of reason are simply assumed as properly basic. You rely on all of the above and trust in them without being able to prove them. That is what makes them axiomatic.

Human beings are so accustomed to acting on faith in their day to day lives, that doing so largely goes undetected. Most people never give thought to how many things they simply believe things to be true without being able to prove them true. Acting on faith is second nature to all of us.


It is hilarious that you would speak of proving reason. Reason, like the axioms it rests upon, does not need to be proved. It is axiomatic. By speaking of proving reason you are implicitly affirming reason as a means to knowledge. Try and prove that reason is invalid without using reason. Try to prove any proposition without using reason.

Reason is man's means of proving things. It does not need to be "proved". It is validated by the axioms existence, consciousness, identity and the primacy of existence. To use reason means to consistently hold the primacy of existence as an absolute.

Now exactly what principles validate faith Jeremy? You need to answer that question. You speak of needing to validate reason but not faith. No one ever speaks in terms of validating faith. That's what faith is, belief without validation, Jeremy. It is the consistent affirmation of the the primacy of consciousness, the antithesis of the principle that reason rests on.

I agree with you that most people are accustomed to acting on faith because the majority of them are taught from the earliest age that their minds are useless to answer the most important questions in life. That is why religion is so harmful. It is a mind crippling philosophy.

If you want to invalidate reason then you need to start with the first axiom it rests upon, existence. So go ahead and prove that existence doesn't exist. Oh and do so without using reason. Go ahead, this should be interesting.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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02-07-2014, 09:30 PM
RE: Irrationality of faith
(02-07-2014 04:14 PM)Rinpoche Wrote:  
(30-05-2014 12:51 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Christians get very upset with me when I call their belief irrational. In fact they always tell me that their beliefs are more logical than atheism. They say they have so, soooo many rational reasons for their belief.

Now imagine this scenario for a minute, which I would be willing to bet happened hundreds if not thousands of times across the country last weekend. A Christian has been talking to someone for a while, working on them to convert and they invite them to church. At the end of the service they urge their friend to go up during the alter call or whatever it's called (It's been a while since I went to church).

Everyone is clapping and exclaiming and the new person gets down and prays the prayer and eats the cookie or whatever and accepts Jesus as his savior and that the bible is the inerrant word of god and devotes his life to serve God.

Everyone is ecstatic and teary eyed and afterwords they all congratulate him and urge him to attend regularly and make sure he comes to Bible study on Wednesday and ........insert sound of scratching record.....wait, what?

Isn't that something you should have done first before you decided to become a Christian? Shouldn't you have a thorough understanding of the Bible and the tenets of the religion before you dedicate your life and shouldn't the members of the church admonish you to do this before making such a life altering decision? Shouldn't they tell you to check every premise and validate every concept first and then decide?

NOOOOO, that's not the way it works according to Christians. First you have to believe and then comes the understanding. In fact they tell me it is impossible to know the truth of the bible until you accept it as true. Then if you're so inclined you get instructed on the arguments and tactics you can use to covert others. "Pretend to be interested in what the atheist has to say" (I actually saw this quote on a legitimate website for teaching techniques to convert non believers).

It's like one of those time share deals where you go and they get you liquored up and pressure you to sign on the dotted line. What do you do if you start studying the bible and you find stuff you don't really agree with or admire. What if you find blatant contradictions.

Christians, you can't tell me that faith and reason are compatible.

Well, to non-religious people of course it's irrational! You have to believe in it in the first place. That's why we call it faith, because their is no objective evidence!

Wow, thank you for being so honest and forthcoming.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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03-07-2014, 10:48 AM
RE: Irrationality of faith
(02-07-2014 09:30 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(02-07-2014 04:14 PM)Rinpoche Wrote:  Well, to non-religious people of course it's irrational! You have to believe in it in the first place. That's why we call it faith, because their is no objective evidence!

Wow, thank you for being so honest and forthcoming.

I don't think our Dharma King realizes just what he's admitting.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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03-07-2014, 04:37 PM
RE: Irrationality of faith
(03-07-2014 10:48 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(02-07-2014 09:30 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Wow, thank you for being so honest and forthcoming.

I don't think our Dharma King realizes just what he's admitting.

Possibly or he could be one of those rare honest religious people. I have met a few in my life.

On the other hand I don't think Jeremy, I mean ecce Homo will be back.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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