Irreducible complexity
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08-12-2013, 09:36 AM (This post was last modified: 16-12-2013 11:53 AM by Chas.)
RE: Irreducible complexity
(08-12-2013 02:40 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 01:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  An irreducibly complex thing cannot "be evolved", it could only be created. That is true by definition.

There is nothing in "the system" that is irreducibly complex.

For you to claim there is nothing in the system that is irreducibly complex you must be privy to all the components of the system. One component of the natural evolutionary system are the first self replicating things. Please tell us about these things and how is it you know what they are, how the came into being, etc. Write a paper and win a Nobel prize.

You are the one claiming IC. Show it. I have stated there isn't anything IR because there is no evidence of anything IC.

Show us something that is irreducibly complex and prove that it is so.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-12-2013, 09:40 AM
RE: Irreducible complexity
(08-12-2013 02:36 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 12:28 PM)Stevil Wrote:  How does this computer program represent evolution?

As far as I know we developed eyes because eyes gave us a survival advantage e.g. be able to locate food, be able to see predators coming, be able to see sex partners.

Our eyes are close together presumably because we are predators and need to hunt other animals, thus judging distances is more important than having 360 degree views.

We have mouths presumable because we need to breath air and we need to injest food. That's why our mouths have openings, teeth, tongue, throat etc.

We have nose because there is a survival advantage in us being able to smell. If we ingest food that has gone off then we die.

Can you please explain why this computer "evolution" program produced a face?

Evolution is descent with change. The computer algorithm that generates the picture uses descent with change. I'm not privy to the actual code but I believe the algorithm goes something like this.

1. A random image is generated. It is the first of the evolving line. The primordial parent so to speak.
2. The image is "mutated". This mutated image represents the offspring of the parent.
3. If the mutation causes the offspring image to look more like the face trying to be generated the new image is kept and becomes the parent image of the next generation.
4. If the mutation cause the image to look less like the face trying to be generated the new image is discarded. The parent image is mutated again....another offspring is produced.
5. Rinse and repeat.

Human intellect is using evolutionary processes to create. The video is evidence of that. Evolution is being used to solve games, produce art, design airfoils, all sorts of stuff. As a theist, I have no problem whatsoever with God using evolution to create humans. Its an elegant and beautiful way to create.

Not this tired argument again. Weeping

We are smart enough to simulate an evolutionary process. So what?

You keep confusing directed evolution with natural selection - they are not the same algorithm.
There is no reason to believe that natural selection is goal-directed or guided, there is nothing that dictates what will result except that its antecedents survived.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-12-2013, 10:06 AM
RE: Irreducible complexity
(08-12-2013 02:40 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  For you to claim there is nothing in the system that is irreducibly complex you must be privy to all the components of the system.

Nope.

Burden of proof, champ (and I know this has been explained to you many times before - several times by me, no less).

You assert the existence of some phenomenon, you must demonstrate its existence.

(08-12-2013 02:40 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  One component of the natural evolutionary system are the first self replicating things. Please tell us about these things and how is it you know what they are, how the came into being, etc. Write a paper and win a Nobel prize.

"Don't know,
THEREFORE God".

Horseshit then, horseshit now, horseshit forever.

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08-12-2013, 11:51 AM
RE: Irreducible complexity
(08-12-2013 02:36 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  1. A random image is generated. It is the first of the evolving line. The primordial parent so to speak.
2. The image is "mutated". This mutated image represents the offspring of the parent.
3. If the mutation causes the offspring image to look more like the face trying to be generated the new image is kept and becomes the parent image of the next generation.
That's not evolution.

As I said, with the Cheetah, it was the antelope that selected the fast cheetahs, the slow cheetahs couldn't catch the antelopes so they died of starvation.
With the antelope, it was the cheetahs that selected the fast antelopes, the slow antelopes were much more likely to be eaten.

Same thing with flowers and bees. The bees selected the flowers which produced the sweet nectar, they selected the flowers which looked the most attractive.

If you think instead that evolution is a process of random mutation followed by a check against an ultimate design and then a filter process which kills off those offspring which look less like the ultimate design then there are many issues with this process.
Why is it that animals appear to adapt to their environment? Why were elephants hairy during the ice age? Why did birds lose their power of flight in NZ? Why did marsupials dominate Australia? How did dolphins and whales evolve in the oceans, surely they would have drown unless of course there was a period in the evolutionary cycle when these animals lived on the land.

Why is it that humans can perform selection and "create" many varieties of dog?
Why is it that humans can perform evolution experiments and see change in communities of guppies? or see bacteria change to be able to injest citrate?

These things aren't following an end design, they are adapting to their environment.
The closest to an end design is where humans are purposefully trying to breed certain looking dogs. But the human approach wouldn't work if the design was built by god. The dogs would continue evolving towards the ultimate end goal rather than the goal that the humans are breeding for.
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08-12-2013, 10:25 PM
RE: Irreducible complexity
(06-12-2013 01:46 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  TTA converts have no names to you. They are all pseudonyms. Again I offer to tell this group my real name and address once you have done likewise.

Oh, like how you promised to prove the existence of your god if we proved our own existence? Yeah, no thanks, and fuck you; I've seen that bullshit before. Dodgy

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09-12-2013, 01:12 AM
RE: Irreducible complexity
(08-12-2013 11:51 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Why did birds lose their power of flight in NZ?

Stoned all the time like most kiwi's

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09-12-2013, 02:09 AM
RE: Irreducible complexity
(08-12-2013 09:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  Show us something that is irreducibly complex and prove that it is so.

M. mycoides JCVIsyn1.0 is a bacteria that was created in the lab. The bacteria contains a biological system of watermarks to distinguish it from naturally occurring bacteria. Within that system of watermarks are the names of the people who created the bacteria and quotes from literature. It is not possible for bacteria to evolve specific quotes from literature. The watermarks themselves are irreducibly complex.

http://singularityhub.com/2010/05/24/ven...n-its-dna/

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09-12-2013, 02:14 AM
RE: Irreducible complexity
(09-12-2013 02:09 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  M. mycoides JCVIsyn1.0 is a bacteria that was created in the lab. The bacteria contains a biological system of watermarks to distinguish it from naturally occurring bacteria. Within that system of watermarks are the names of the people who created the bacteria and quotes from literature. It is not possible for bacteria to evolve specific quotes from literature. The watermarks themselves are irreducibly complex.

http://singularityhub.com/2010/05/24/ven...n-its-dna/

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09-12-2013, 02:31 AM
RE: Irreducible complexity
(08-12-2013 09:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  Not this tired argument again. Weeping

We are smart enough to simulate an evolutionary process. So what?

You keep confusing directed evolution with natural selection - they are not the same algorithm.
There is no reason to believe that natural selection is goal-directed or guided, there is nothing that dictates what will result except that its antecedents survived.

To my knowledge humans have only simulated goal directed or guided evolution and that suggest to me the possibility that only goal directed or guided evolution exists.
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09-12-2013, 02:35 AM
RE: Irreducible complexity
(09-12-2013 02:14 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  [Image: KgL2jzI.gif]

I get nothing? Well no surprise there......the goal post always seems move around here.
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