Irreducible complexity
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18-12-2013, 04:09 AM
RE: Irreducible complexity
(18-12-2013 03:23 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  No....not everyone agrees with the definitions you provided. Human deaths caused by humankind are considered natural because they exist in nature(according to some in this thread)....and are considered unnatural because they are caused by human kind.
HJ, I think a problem here is that there is a twist of words going on.

If we focus less on the words and more on the concepts then we get it straight.

Humans are part of materialistic nature. The only other alternative is supernatural and that might not even be possible and is certainly not objectively provable.

Humans can intervene on matters that have traditionally required evolution, thus if a scientist didn't know such a thing had been interfered with this evolutionary scientist would probably struggle to work out how such a structure evolved.

What it would prove is that humans have worked out some of what power is encapsulated within DNA coding.

So, I personally agree that IC is possible.

This does not however get us any closer to proving in magical supernatural beings. It would mean that if we were to find something to be IC then it is more likely to be "intelligent" natural creature that intervened, using medical science rather than a magical supernatural being willing the IC into being.

Why I say a natural creature is more likely than a supernatural creature. This is because we have objectively discovered thousands/millions of instances of natural creatures and zero instances of supernatural ones. We know of one natural creature (human) which can dabble in DNA manipulation. So at least we have one precedence of that.
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18-12-2013, 04:33 AM
RE: Irreducible complexity
(18-12-2013 04:09 AM)Stevil Wrote:  HJ, I think a problem here is that there is a twist of words going on.

If we focus less on the words and more on the concepts then we get it straight.

Humans are part of materialistic nature. The only other alternative is supernatural and that might not even be possible and is certainly not objectively provable.

Humans can intervene on matters that have traditionally required evolution, thus if a scientist didn't know such a thing had been interfered with this evolutionary scientist would probably struggle to work out how such a structure evolved.

What it would prove is that humans have worked out some of what power is encapsulated within DNA coding.

So, I personally agree that IC is possible.

This does not however get us any closer to proving in magical supernatural beings. It would mean that if we were to find something to be IC then it is more likely to be "intelligent" natural creature that intervened, using medical science rather than a magical supernatural being willing the IC into being.

Why I say a natural creature is more likely than a supernatural creature. This is because we have objectively discovered thousands/millions of instances of natural creatures and zero instances of supernatural ones. We know of one natural creature (human) which can dabble in DNA manipulation. So at least we have one precedence of that.

I have said several times in this thread that IC does not prove God.....and never ever once claimed that it did.

What I find a little interesting is that so many here are willing to make the assumption that only human intellect exists and therefore since humans weren't around during all of evolution IC can't possibly exist except if it is human made. Concerning the IC, the only reason to assume that only human intellect exists is to support a conclusion that non human made IC can't exist......which is shoddy thinking.
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18-12-2013, 06:32 AM
RE: Irreducible complexity
(18-12-2013 04:33 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  ......which is shoddy thinking.

And if there's ANYONE that knows about THAT, it's Blowjob.
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18-12-2013, 06:51 AM
RE: Irreducible complexity
(18-12-2013 04:33 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(18-12-2013 04:09 AM)Stevil Wrote:  HJ, I think a problem here is that there is a twist of words going on.

If we focus less on the words and more on the concepts then we get it straight.

Humans are part of materialistic nature. The only other alternative is supernatural and that might not even be possible and is certainly not objectively provable.

Humans can intervene on matters that have traditionally required evolution, thus if a scientist didn't know such a thing had been interfered with this evolutionary scientist would probably struggle to work out how such a structure evolved.

What it would prove is that humans have worked out some of what power is encapsulated within DNA coding.

So, I personally agree that IC is possible.

This does not however get us any closer to proving in magical supernatural beings. It would mean that if we were to find something to be IC then it is more likely to be "intelligent" natural creature that intervened, using medical science rather than a magical supernatural being willing the IC into being.

Why I say a natural creature is more likely than a supernatural creature. This is because we have objectively discovered thousands/millions of instances of natural creatures and zero instances of supernatural ones. We know of one natural creature (human) which can dabble in DNA manipulation. So at least we have one precedence of that.


What I find a little interesting is that so many here are willing to make the assumption that only human intellect exists and therefore since humans weren't around during all of evolution IC can't possibly exist except if it is human made. Concerning the IC, the only reason to assume that only human intellect exists is to support a conclusion that non human made IC can't exist......which is shoddy thinking.

You mean aside from the lack of evidence of anything with intelligence equal to or greater than humans anywhere near us with the capacity to create things outside using stones as primitive tools to crack hard nuts and building shelter out of leaves, right?

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18-12-2013, 08:40 AM
RE: Irreducible complexity
Shoddy thinking ???
Neither evolution or god has endowed humans to mentally processes infinite probabilities.

Even if we round down to a hundred trillion probable alternatives to evolution, I say its probably best to stick with the falsifiable scientific method.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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18-12-2013, 09:59 AM
RE: Irreducible complexity
(18-12-2013 01:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 02:20 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  This is something that is generally understood by honest people interested in an honest discussion, but trolls like you like to play semantics games since you think that's the only way you can "win" the argument, given you've got no evidence or sound logic to back your opinions.


My opinion is that irreducible complexity is a real quality...as evidenced by the system of watermarks contained in the synthetic bacteria. That if it can exist in synthetic bacteria it can in principle exist in non synthetic organisms. That if one wishes to find irreducible complexity in non synthetic organisms the best place to look it at organisms(or their precursors) which begin a chain of evolution.

I don't think anyone's contesting the claim that it's theoretically possible, the problem is with the claim that it exists. Sure, it's theoretically possible, but so are a lot of things (bigfoot, Santa, jackalopes, etc) that could also exist theoretically, but we don't believe they do because a) lack of evidence and b) mythical origins. The problem with IC is a) lack of evidence and b) pseudoscientific origins (it was invented by creationists specifically to dispute evolution).
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18-12-2013, 11:56 AM
RE: Irreducible complexity
(18-12-2013 04:33 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I have said several times in this thread that IC does not prove God.....and never ever once claimed that it did.

What I find a little interesting is that so many here are willing to make the assumption that only human intellect exists and therefore since humans weren't around during all of evolution IC can't possibly exist except if it is human made. Concerning the IC, the only reason to assume that only human intellect exists is to support a conclusion that non human made IC can't exist......which is shoddy thinking.
Humans have set a precedence. Materialistic creatures can interfere with DNA.
If we can do it then it is possible for other materialistic creatures in the universe to do it also.

Are you suggesting that Martians came to Earth a long time ago and created IC structures? Are you able to point to something that is IC?

Did you know that the closest star to Earth apart from the Sun is a very, very long way away. That if an alien race developed space travel and could travel from that solar system to Earth at 10% of the speed of light then it would take them 40 years for this one way trip.
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18-12-2013, 11:59 AM
RE: Irreducible complexity
When I think of Irreducible Complexity I always think of the average HOC post.

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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