Is Atheism a Religion.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
02-12-2013, 12:24 PM
RE: Is Atheism a Religion.
(20-08-2013 04:43 PM)Buddhist Alternative Wrote:  That is why I find that only Agnostics and Buddhists are independent objective thinkers.
Clearly you mistake the definition of the words "atheist" and "agnostic"

The following contradicts your claim that Buddhists are independent objective thinkers:
(20-08-2013 04:43 PM)Buddhist Alternative Wrote:  6. The Afterlife Depends on this Life
7. Books and Teachings are Very Important
8. Meditation is Key
9. Healing Comes from Mind
11. Our Bodies Are Precious
12. Your Spiritual Community is Important
13. Interconnectedness is the Nature of Reality
14. It’s Good to Be Good
15. Compassion is Key

It seems that Buddism is an oxymoron
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-12-2013, 01:33 PM
RE: Is Atheism a Religion.
(02-12-2013 12:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It seems that Buddism is an oxymoron

OP's "nutshell" assessment of Buddhism is quite inaccurate. No surprise.



(20-08-2013 04:43 PM)Buddhist Alternative Wrote:  I never thought so until I found Atheists adamant that 'Spontaneous
Creation' explains everything. SP takes a Leap of Faith - something
Atheists have always scoffed at in others.


This is of course nonsense. I gather that the term "Spontaneous Creation" is a figment of OP's own spontaneous creation.


Quote:As a Buddhist I don't
believe in anything without thinking.

This claim is based on a bastardization of a quite well-known quote, which is almost always taken out of context and distorted to mean something different from what it meant, usually by people with a quite superficial understanding of Buddhism. (It's from something called the "Kalama Sutta", and the context is that the people who asked him for advice on conflicting metaphysical claims of other sages should instead discern for themselves the answers to such questions as whether qualities such as greed, aversion, and delusion arising in a person lead to harm or not, and then conduct themselves accordingly.)

Quote:That is why I find that only
Agnostics and Buddhists are independent objective thinkers.

Utter tosh.

Quote:Buddhism in a nutshell:
1. Buddha is Not a God

That's true.

Quote:2. You Should Not Believe Anything Without Thinking

Again: a distorted misquote.

Quote:3. Gods and Deities are Cultural

....figments of imagination

Quote:4. But… Don’t worry too much about the nature of God

Absolutely nothing to do with Buddhism and made up by OP.

Quote:6. The Afterlife Depends on this Life

The Buddha's take on such beliefs was that, if one were to believe such things, such beliefs should lead to ethical action.

Quote:7. Books and Teachings are Very Important

This doesn't really even say anything, and OP is making it up.

Quote:8. Meditation is Key

Meditation (done properly) is an important factor, but there is no statement "Meditation is key".

Quote:9. Healing Comes from Mind
10. It’s Up To Ourselves
11. Our Bodies Are Precious

OP makes all this up.

Quote:12. Your Spiritual Community is Important

There is a sense of the importance of community.

Quote:13. Interconnectedness is the Nature of Reality

This is a 20th-century (Thich Nhat Hanh) made-up bastardization.

Quote:14. It’s Good to Be Good

OP made this up, it doesn't even mean anything.

Quote:15. Compassion is Key

Never stated in this way. Compassion, however, is a secular, non-superstitious basis for morality and ethical action.

Quote:16. Sex is Neither Bad nor Good

Never stated in this way. Sexuality is not shunned and the usual obvious inappropriate sexual conduct is decried (adultery, pedophilia, etc).


Quote:17. Strive for Balance

More OP woo. The Buddha's recommendations for practise are called "The Middle Way", but it means something entirely different.

Quote:18. It’s Never Too Late to Begin

OP made this up.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-12-2013, 03:18 PM
RE: Is Atheism a Religion.
(02-12-2013 10:02 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  I disagreeeeeeeee.

Theism is broader than deism...deism is a subset of theism.

Theism = the belief in the existence of any deity (one or many).
Deism (I'll use your def)= the belief in a god that simply set the universe in motion and hasn't been seen or heard of since.

A religion is not just a belief, it is a collection of practices, stories, teachings, dogma, and scripture.

I just woke up...too tired to write more sorry.

Really? I can't believe I need to go pulling out the damn definitions on this to make my point...

Theism
-Belief in the existence of a god or gods, esp. belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.

Deism
-Belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. The term is used chiefly of an intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason but rejected belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind.

Theism is the belief in a specific type of interventionist deity. One who screws around in the word, answers prayers, watches and judges you, causes miracles, and does other things to interact in the world. A deistic god does none of these things. This is why a theistic god is more specific, because (once again) it makes more assumptions and describes (once again) a far more specific god concept, and is thus (once again) far less probable.

So it makes no sense to say the far more broad and less specific deism is a subset of the far more specific theism. An analogy; calling deism a subset of theism would be like calling 'sport cars' a subset of Chevrolet Corvette's...

Religion
-the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.

Part of religion is belief in a god, they are part and parcel. Try making up a god that doesn't have "practices, stories, teachings, dogma, and scripture". As soon as you try to at all describe what your god is and how it operates or what it does, you're now inventing stories about that god. Upon those stories you can start to try and infer what you might want to do to achieve certain goals, and this leads to the creation of practices, which later become codified into teachings and dogmas. Even deists and pantheists fall under this; they're just not as large, unified, or organized as other religions.

[Image: GrumpyCat_01.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-12-2013, 05:00 PM
RE: Is Atheism a Religion.
(02-12-2013 03:18 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Really? I can't believe I need to go pulling out the damn definitions on this to make my point...

Theism
-Belief in the existence of a god or gods, esp. belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.

Deism
-Belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. The term is used chiefly of an intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason but rejected belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind.

Theism is the belief in a specific type of interventionist deity. One who screws around in the word, answers prayers, watches and judges you, causes miracles, and does other things to interact in the world. A deistic god does none of these things. This is why a theistic god is more specific, because (once again) it makes more assumptions and describes (once again) a far more specific god concept, and is thus (once again) far less probable.

So it makes no sense to say the far more broad and less specific deism is a subset of the far more specific theism. An analogy; calling deism a subset of theism would be like calling 'sport cars' a subset of Chevrolet Corvette's...

Religion
-the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.

Part of religion is belief in a god, they are part and parcel. Try making up a god that doesn't have "practices, stories, teachings, dogma, and scripture". As soon as you try to at all describe what your god is and how it operates or what it does, you're now inventing stories about that god. Upon those stories you can start to try and infer what you might want to do to achieve certain goals, and this leads to the creation of practices, which later become codified into teachings and dogmas. Even deists and pantheists fall under this; they're just not as large, unified, or organized as other religions.
I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. Theism is not specific to interventionalist deities, and is not confined to only deities that are worshiped.

Theism includes monotheism, polytheism, pantheism, deism, pandeism, penendeism, polydeism, and more.

And no, deism and pantheism do not have to fall under the definition of religion. It wouldn't be hard to find somebody who "just believes there is something out there." But they "don't know what it is, what it wants, or if it wants, but they believe it is out there and it is a god (or group of gods)." It is NOT necessary to make an elaborate story to explain or create an origin for a deity to just believe in it. *Belief does not have to be rational, consistent or evidenced*. I know theists and deists that have no religion.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-12-2013, 05:10 PM
RE: Is Atheism a Religion.
Even with the definitions you gave, deism is still a subset of theism, given that "creator" and "supreme being" are synonyms for "deity".

(02-12-2013 03:18 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Theism
-Belief in the existence of a god or gods, esp. belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.

Deism
-Belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. The term is used chiefly of an intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason but rejected belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind.
Theism = general, deism = more specific.

The "especially" remark in the theism definition refers to common usage. But even that usage would be ignoring polytheism, which is obviously a form of theism.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-12-2013, 05:27 PM
RE: Is Atheism a Religion.
(02-12-2013 05:00 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. Theism is not specific to interventionalist deities, and is not confined to only deities that are worshiped.

Theism includes monotheism, polytheism, pantheism, deism, pandeism, penendeism, polydeism, and more.

And no, deism and pantheism do not have to fall under the definition of religion. It wouldn't be hard to find somebody who "just believes there is something out there." But they "don't know what it is, what it wants, or if it wants, but they believe it is out there and it is a god (or group of gods)." It is NOT necessary to make an elaborate story to explain or create an origin for a deity to just believe in it. *Belief does not have to be rational, consistent or evidenced*. I know theists and deists that have no religion.

Eh? I'm gonna have to disagree with parts of that.

The set of all possible interventionist and personal supernatural entitities is necessarily a proper subset of the set of all possible supernatural entities.

Theism ⊂ Deism.

(02-12-2013 05:10 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Even with the definitions you gave, deism is still a subset of theism, given that "creator" and "supreme being" are synonyms for "deity".

Theism = general, deism = more specific.

That can't follow, though. You can't get more specific by subtracting characteristics.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like cjlr's post
02-12-2013, 06:42 PM (This post was last modified: 02-12-2013 06:46 PM by Adrianime.)
RE: Is Atheism a Religion.
(02-12-2013 05:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Eh? I'm gonna have to disagree with parts of that.

The set of all possible interventionist and personal supernatural entitities is necessarily a proper subset of the set of all possible supernatural entities.

Theism ⊂ Deism.

(02-12-2013 05:10 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Even with the definitions you gave, deism is still a subset of theism, given that "creator" and "supreme being" are synonyms for "deity".

Theism = general, deism = more specific.

That can't follow, though. You can't get more specific by subtracting characteristics.
You are mistaken on which set is which.

Theism = belief in (an) element(s) from (the set of all possible supernatural deities)
Deism = belief in (an) element(s) from (the set of supernatural deities that are not interventionists).

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-12-2013, 07:04 PM
RE: Is Atheism a Religion.
(02-12-2013 05:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  That can't follow, though. You can't get more specific by subtracting characteristics.
Oh I see what you are saying here.

Yes, you are correct, but you aren't substracting characteristics in deism. You are adding very specific characteristics (not personal, does not intervene).

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-12-2013, 11:01 PM (This post was last modified: 02-12-2013 11:14 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Is Atheism a Religion.
(02-12-2013 07:04 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(02-12-2013 05:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  That can't follow, though. You can't get more specific by subtracting characteristics.
Oh I see what you are saying here.

Yes, you are correct, but you aren't substracting characteristics in deism. You are adding very specific characteristics (not personal, does not intervene).

Adrianime, the problem is your definition of Theism.

Wikipedia Wrote:Theism, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists. In a more specific sense, theism is commonly a monotheistic doctrine concerning the nature of a deity, and that deity's relationship to the universe. Theism, in this specific sense, conceives of God as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe. As such theism describes the classical conception of God that is found in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Sikhism and Hinduism. The use of the word theism to indicate this classical form of monotheism began during the scientific revolution of the seventeenth century in order to distinguish it from the then-emerging deism which contended that God, though transcendent and supreme, did not intervene in the natural world and could be known rationally but not via revelation.

You're using theism in the broadest sense, which is identical to deism. So when using or comparing the two, it is pointless to use the broadest definition; especially when the most common usage since the 17'th century has been the interventionist definition. Deism is only useful as a term when used to contrast theism, not as a synonym for it... Dodgy


Also, how in the hell is a god that doesn't intervene more specific than one that does?

You start out at a baseline that no gods exist, from there you add attributes. If all you add is existence, then you can get to Pantheism. If you add creation of reality to existence, you get Deism. If you add intervention to existence and creation, you get Theism. If you add David and Solomon, you get Yahweh. If you add Jesus to that, you get Christianity. If you add Moroni and Joseph Smith on top of that, you get Mormonism.

[Image: GrumpyCat_01.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes EvolutionKills's post
03-12-2013, 02:05 AM
RE: Is Atheism a Religion.
EvolutionKills, I understand what you are saying...And I see that our definitions of theism are different. You see theism as pointing to a class of gods. Whereas I see theism as pointing to all gods.

Gods that intervene or gods that don't, both of those are characteristics. Take humanity for instance. Some humans are meddlers, some are not. But all are part of the human species. I see the set of gods that theism encompasses the same as I see the set of humans that humanity encompasses.

But still, even with our different definitions, I have never seen a definition of theism that does not point towards ALL gods. Otherwise the word atheist would not have the meaning that it does. Atheism = without theism = without belief in any gods. If your definition of theism were standard then atheism would lose its meaning and it would mean "without belief in creating/intervening gods."

The baseline is just the idea of at least one super-powerful being existing. That's it. It doesn't have to have any characteristics aside from having powers beyond any other type of creature (i.e. being a god). That is the start, and that is theism.

Here is a question for you. Given your definitions, what belief set has access to "the set of all possible deities"? If you eliminate theism, I can't think of an accurate word that has access to all possible deities.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: