Is Atheism a Religion.
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03-12-2013, 02:39 AM (This post was last modified: 03-12-2013 08:51 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Is Atheism a Religion.
(03-12-2013 02:05 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Gods that intervene or gods that don't, both of those are characteristics. Take humanity for instance. Some humans are meddlers, some are not. But all are part of the human species. I see the set of gods that theism encompasses the same as I see the set of humans that humanity encompasses.

I explained this already.

(02-12-2013 11:01 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You start out at a baseline that no gods exist, from there you add attributes. If all you add is existence, then you can get to Pantheism. If you add creation of reality to existence, you get Deism. If you add intervention to existence and creation, you get Theism. If you add David and Solomon, you get Yahweh. If you add Jesus to that, you get Christianity. If you add Moroni and Joseph Smith on top of that, you get Mormonism.

This represents a hierarchy organization, whereas your definitions leads to a mess and isn't helpful at all for comparing and differentiating god concepts. It's very similar to nested hierarchy's in evolution, and given the way religion has apparently evolved along with society, this makes a lot of sense.



(03-12-2013 02:05 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  But still, even with our different definitions, I have never seen a definition of theism that does not point towards ALL gods. Otherwise the word atheist would not have the meaning that it does. Atheism = without theism = without belief in any gods. If your definition of theism were standard then atheism would lose its meaning and it would mean "without belief in creating/intervening gods."

Then you simply haven't spent enough time with the material is this is your first encounter with the specific definition of theism. Much like with the word 'theory' there is a broad common usage, and a more specific usage. Atheism means simply 'not a theist', and can be used in either the broader or narrower sense. This is ironically enough why it's not a terribly useful label for describing unbelievers, because it's a statement of lacking belief. This is why so many qualify it with agnosticism and other positive beliefs; like rationalism, methodological naturalism, skepticism, or secular humanism.



(03-12-2013 02:05 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  The baseline is just the idea of at least one super-powerful being existing. That's it. It doesn't have to have any characteristics aside from having powers beyond any other type of creature (i.e. being a god). That is the start, and that is theism.

Like I've said, that is the absolute broadest and least useful definition as it contains no information. You claim it simply is a god. Great, what does that mean? Your definition is meaningless in trying to describe anything.



(03-12-2013 02:05 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Here is a question for you. Given your definitions, what belief set has access to "the set of all possible deities"? If you eliminate theism, I can't think of an accurate word that has access to all possible deities.

That's because it's not theism, it's called 'imagination'... Drinking Beverage
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03-12-2013, 08:43 AM
RE: Is Atheism a Religion.
(20-08-2013 04:43 PM)Buddhist Alternative Wrote:  I never thought so until I found Atheists adamant that 'Spontaneous
Creation' explains everything.
Eh.. WHAT !? Atheists believe NOTHING! they're open to every ridiculous belief there is.. unless there is EVIDENCE of course.
Quote:As a Buddhist I don't believe in anything without thinking.
>The Afterlife Depends on this Lifeyou just contradicted yourself !
> Don’t worry too much about the nature of God
how can you assume how life works ?
how can you assume that God exists ? that's not free thinking!
>Books and Teachings are Very Important
I don't think so. most of the religious scriptures have outdated sexist,deranged,patriarchal morals and teachings which only demands for blind faith in something without any apparent evidence whatsoever.
Quote:That is why I find that only Agnostics and Buddhists are independent objective thinkers.
Oh yes,hypocrisy is the first step to free thinking i suppose.
>Our Bodies Are Precious,It’s Good to Be Good,Compassion is Key
No shit Sherlock!
>Your Spiritual Community is Important
I don't believe in souls or supernatural because there's no empirical evidence.
Interconnectedness is the Nature of Reality
How the hell do you know that ? do you have an MD in thermodynamics,astrophysics and cosmology ? unless you have that i'd take that as a bullshit.
>Sex is Neither Bad nor Good
It provides us with intimate metal&physical stimulation and also keeps our relationships healthy i consider that neither Bad nor Good its fucking AWESOME!
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Begin what ?
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03-12-2013, 09:09 AM
RE: Is Atheism a Religion.
(02-12-2013 06:42 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  You are mistaken on which set is which.

Highly unlikely.

(02-12-2013 06:42 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Theism = belief in (an) element(s) from (the set of all possible supernatural deities)
Deism = belief in (an) element(s) from (the set of supernatural deities that are not interventionists).

I see what you're trying to say, but it simply isn't coherent.

The default is the null case.

Which is a simpler proposition?
A supernatural entity created the universe.
A supernatural entity created the universe and does stuff in it.

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03-12-2013, 09:33 AM
RE: Is Atheism a Religion.
(03-12-2013 02:05 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  EvolutionKills, I understand what you are saying...And I see that our definitions of theism are different. You see theism as pointing to a class of gods. Whereas I see theism as pointing to all gods.

That isn't how theism is defined in any dictionary I can lay my hands to, which specifically mention revelation and intervention.
(whereas most of them said "compare deism", which is either defined without mention of such or as explicitly lacking such)

(03-12-2013 02:05 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Gods that intervene or gods that don't, both of those are characteristics.

And making specific reference to said characteristics is how theism is defined. It is therefore necessarily a subset of entities to whom no characteristic is specified.

(notwithstanding that you can't place presence on the same scale as null and call them equal)

(03-12-2013 02:05 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Take humanity for instance. Some humans are meddlers, some are not. But all are part of the human species. I see the set of gods that theism encompasses the same as I see the set of humans that humanity encompasses.

As far as I know, you live in a free country. So you are free to use words to mean whatever you want. This does not mean anyone else need agree. Tongue

(03-12-2013 02:05 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  But still, even with our different definitions, I have never seen a definition of theism that does not point towards ALL gods.

It means a personal interventionist god (according to everywhere I checked). So that's literally an explicit subset of all supernatural entities.

(03-12-2013 02:05 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Otherwise the word atheist would not have the meaning that it does. Atheism = without theism = without belief in any gods. If your definition of theism were standard then atheism would lose its meaning and it would mean "without belief in creating/intervening gods."

Aight. Etymology time! 'Deism' stems from the Latin root 'dei', meaning gods. 'Theism' stems from the Greek root 'theoi', meaning gods.

The word 'theism' was, perhaps contrary to expectation, formed in response to the word 'atheism', and is attested from the early 17th century; 'atheism' itself being a 16th century formulation. In the simplest sense 'theist' actually mean "not an atheist" (so how's that for irony?).

At the time no modern shades of meaning were necessary. Theism was a general term, but ill-defined.

'Deism' is a slightly later formation intended as a deliberate distinction from 'theism'. The Deists were generally Enlightenment intellectuals who were smart enough to reject continuing revelation and intervention, but lacking any alternatives still subscribed to a supernatural first cause.

Now, as mentioned, it is logically necessary that theism then be a subset of deism. "God is A" is necessarily the superset of "God is A and B". The former is not the same as saying "God is A and not-B", as you sort of suggest. That isn't tenable.

(03-12-2013 02:05 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  The baseline is just the idea of at least one super-powerful being existing. That's it. It doesn't have to have any characteristics aside from having powers beyond any other type of creature (i.e. being a god). That is the start, and that is theism.

But, once again, I have never seen anyone but you define theism so.

(03-12-2013 02:05 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Here is a question for you. Given your definitions, what belief set has access to "the set of all possible deities"? If you eliminate theism, I can't think of an accurate word that has access to all possible deities.

Alas, there isn't one.

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03-12-2013, 10:05 AM
RE: Is Atheism a Religion.
So you two feel you have the liberty to take the narrow, specific definition of theism which does not even cover pantheism and polytheism (both of which are obvious forms of theism). While I feel I have the liberty to take the original, broad definition. We both believe the other is wrong. Oh well.

Different root words does not mean one is not a subset of the other. Anyways, I'll open up a thread on this so that others can discuss this. I don't believe you guys are correct, but I'm curious to see what others say.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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03-12-2013, 10:14 AM
RE: Is Atheism a Religion.
(03-12-2013 10:05 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  So you two feel you have the liberty to take the narrow, specific definition of theism which does not even cover pantheism and polytheism (both of which are obvious forms of theism).

Guy, I just looked in a few dictionaries.

(03-12-2013 10:05 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  While I feel I have the liberty to take the original, broad definition.

The original definition is "not atheism". Tongue

(03-12-2013 10:05 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Different root words does not mean one is not a subset of the other.

No, but logic says "A and B" is a subset of "A".

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03-12-2013, 10:20 AM
RE: Is Atheism a Religion.
(03-12-2013 10:05 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  So you two feel you have the liberty to take the narrow, specific definition of theism which does not even cover pantheism and polytheism (both of which are obvious forms of theism). While I feel I have the liberty to take the original, broad definition. We both believe the other is wrong. Oh well.

Different root words does not mean one is not a subset of the other. Anyways, I'll open up a thread on this so that others can discuss this. I don't believe you guys are correct, but I'm curious to see what others say.

Theism does cover polytheism and pantheism.

Neither of you is correct.

Deism and theism are separate, not nested. Deism posits a non-interventionist god, theism is all the rest.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-12-2013, 10:24 AM
RE: Is Atheism a Religion.
(03-12-2013 10:14 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Guy, I just looked in a few dictionaries.
and what did the first sentence of those definitions say?

Quote:The original definition is "not atheism". Tongue
Hmm...can't tell if you are serious or not.

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