Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
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11-02-2017, 04:41 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(11-02-2017 04:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(11-02-2017 03:09 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I disagree.

Atheism is the lack of belief. We don't simply believe that theists haven't met their burden of proof to our personal satisfaction, we know that they haven't. We know, because we don't believe.

To say we only have beliefs about what we believe, or don't believe, is a semantic rabbit hole which produces infinite regression. If we don't know what our own beliefs are, or lack of beliefs, we don't know anything.

I know that no one has convinced me "gods" are real. I don't simply believe it. I know the evidence is not good enough, for me.

Now, I do believe the evidence is objectively not good enough. That's fair enough. But that's not what atheism is.

Dude, do you dictionary much? Do you know what the word 'belief' means? Belief is an acceptance of truth, that the thing or sentiment being believed is true. Whether you accept a proposition on faith or evidence, if you think it is true, you believe it. So while it is a fact that every supernatural claim has failed to meet it's burden of proof, that fact doesn't remove it from being a belief; if you take that fact to be true, you believe in it, it is a belief.


Theists believe in their unevidenced supernatural claims. Atheists don't just have a 'lack of belief' in their claims, we believe their claims to be spurious and invalid. We, as atheists, believe that their claims hold no water; because they evidently do not. Once again, someone who has given such claims little to no thought and is undecided, would rightly be labeled 'agnostic' in this instance. But beliefs don't require evidence, and to act like evidence somehow makes a belief into a non-belief (which is the real semantic rabbit hole) is silly. There are opinions, and informed opinions; some opinions carry a greater weight. There are justifiable beliefs, and unjustifiable beliefs; but they are both still beliefs. Pretending that atheism is a non-belief is dishonest, a bad argument, and appears to be silly at face value to both neutral observers and our opposition; making it a terrible means for trying to convince someone else to agree with you.


Simply put, if you have an opinion, you have a belief. 'Nonbelief' is short hand for believing (accepting a statement as true) that the belief in question is false, unsupported, or otherwise lacks the rigors of truth and authenticity. I am of the opinion that god does not exist, that is my belief, which is why I self identify as an atheist. That belief is bolstered by the fact that every supernatural claims has failed to meet it's burden of proof, but that's doesn't make my atheism (my belief) into a 'lack of belief' in theism; instead it remains a justifiable belief that the claims of theism are themselves unjustifiable. Atheism is the sound, reasonable, and justifiable belief that the the claims of theism are unfounded; therefore atheism is a belief, not a 'lack of belief'. Trying to hide our belief (that theistic claims are false) under the semantic word game of 'lack of belief' is intellectually dishonest.


The argument shouldn't be derailed by who has 'belief' and 'lack of belief'. Both sides have beliefs (both side have sentiments they hold to be true), but only one side has facts and evidence; and that's where the focus of the argument should be, rather than on word games.

Unnecessarily rude. I shan't continue.

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11-02-2017, 05:02 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(11-02-2017 04:41 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Unnecessarily rude. I shan't continue.

The first two sentences? Sure. But were they wrong, or besides the point? Hardly. Drinking Beverage

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11-02-2017, 05:14 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
Yeah, wrong. Lacking belief is not the same as believing something is false. That is a further position.

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11-02-2017, 05:22 AM (This post was last modified: 11-02-2017 05:29 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(11-02-2017 05:14 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Yeah, wrong. Lacking belief is not the same as believing something is false. That is a further position.

And as demonstrated in the post that you refuse to address because I was too rude for your delicate sensibilities, that's patently absurd and intellectually dishonest. You're parroting a badly thought out internet meme. One which incidentally makes atheists look like dishonest goal post shifting shills in a debate with a theist.

EDIT: Remember that believing that a theist's claim is false, is not the same as believing absolutely there are no gods. You can (and indeed, I'd argue that you do) have the belief that theistic claims are false. Believing that they are false (because they lack evidence/fail to meet their burden of proof) is not the same as believing that the inverse is absolutely true (no gods exist). You can believe that their claims lack justification without making a claim yourself, but believing they are unjustified is still a belief. You have a belief, not a 'lack of belief', get the fuck over it and stop wasting time with dishonest word games.

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11-02-2017, 06:09 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
Well done, you're the first person on my ignore list. Sad you can't disagree with people without insulting them.

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11-02-2017, 06:46 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(11-02-2017 06:09 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Well done, you're the first person on my ignore list. Sad you can't disagree with people without insulting them.

You're not the first wet blanket who couldn't take anything but the most courteous Queensbury Rules implementation on the fucking internet.

But sure, tell everyone how I'm on your ignore list if that makes you feel better. I mean, who doesn't like a bit of passive-aggressive bullshit sprinkled atop their vapid sundae? I sure as shit ain't here to throw punches cause of your feels.

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11-02-2017, 07:28 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
Can't read that but I'm sure it was awesome.

Atheism is just the lack of belief in gods. If people want to bring claims into it, evidence, whatever, those are their additions and aren't part of the definition.

Also, belief is not a choice. I don't choose to not be persuaded by the guff people present. I am just not persuaded, and so I don't believe.

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11-02-2017, 10:43 AM (This post was last modified: 11-02-2017 10:47 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
Just gonna talk some more shit about this for anyone who is puzzled.

Let's say god = "intelligent creator of our reality"

Do I believe god exists? No. Do I believe god doesn't exist? No. I have no beliefs about this. But I'm an atheist with regard to this god, because of the former lack of belief.

I don't "believe I have no beliefs" or anything convoluted like that. I have no beliefs. I am completely reserving judgement. It's an unfalsifiable hypothesis that requires a handful of assumptions, which aren't totally ridiculous. I shrug my shoulders. I have no idea. Some people answer "I don't know" to the first question. But that indicates that you don't know what your own beliefs are; some kind of logical disconnect. That's a totally different issue.

Now let's say god = "the character Yahweh in the bible"

Do I believe god exists? No. Do I believe god doesn't exist? Yes, absolutely. I firmly believe it's a steaming pile of crap, and not in any way representative of something that exists in any reality. It would have to be some disgustingly bizarre cosmic coincidence, and even then, it would appear to be a contradictory mess (the character) so what it would even mean for it to "exist" is unclear.

So an atheist may or may not have beliefs about god, depending on the atheist and depending on the type of god we're talking about. Some people might firmly believe that even the first example here isn't a real thing.

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11-02-2017, 10:42 PM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
If I put Robvalue on ignore and just keep repeating my assertions ad nausea without addressing any criticism (because they hurt my feels), can I too win the debate?

No, that would make me a cunt.

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12-02-2017, 10:55 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(11-02-2017 10:42 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If I put Robvalue on ignore and just keep repeating my assertions ad nausea without addressing any criticism (because they hurt my feels), can I too win the debate?

No, that would make me a cunt.
I actually disagree with you and agree with RobValue and don't think he did that bad a job of addressing your points. All that said, i think RV is oversensitive too and should not have such a low bar for his ignore list. But that's his business, not mine. Does that make him a "cunt"? Nah. He is just me two or three years ago when I visited here and felt it was lacking in civility. Then I spent time at City-Data's atheism and religion / spirituality forums and eventually saw what excessive enforced gentility does to rational discourse in the long run -- it gets it muted and shut down.

I am still too old (and old school) to use schoolyard taunts but they no longer bother me and I no longer take them personally. I would rather deal with someone who is juvenile at times but respects my right to (dis)agree -- all of this under moderation that respects everyone's right to self-expression at various levels of maturity.
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