Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
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29-12-2016, 12:20 AM (This post was last modified: 29-12-2016 12:23 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(29-12-2016 12:07 AM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  Rocket: I have been a student of the Bible for the last three years. I have found no reason in the text itself to not accept evolution. The Bible merely claims God created the universe and everything in it. But it says nothing of His exact methods. I have also found that many Fundamentalist Christians don't even know what it is they claim to believe. For example they claim their most fundamental doctrines (Trinity, Immortal Soul,etc) come from the Bible. But an objective view of the text itself one can see the Bible makes no such claims. And that these views are more Platonic views and pagan beliefs woven into Christianity. But most fundamentalists either fail to realize this or refuse to do so. But thank you Rocket.

Indeed. My wife and I are both evolutionary biologists, but she is a Christian. (She still works in the field; I have retired to make my own company.) She and I have spoken on the subject, and she says that very thing. She also says that a God who had to "meddle in the mud, or stick his fingers in the pie" is much less impressive than a God who can set the whole universe up prior to the Big Bang and know in advance that this setup will result in the formation of rocky/watery planets around some of the stars, and that on at least one of them beings will evolve that can recognize their Creator. That's a paraphrased summary of her argument, but I don't really take issue with it-- I just consider it an unnecessary assumption.

I think it's pretty obvious that the Genesis creation story is simply the early Hebrews' version of the same sorts of creation mythology (some quite similar to theirs) found throughout the Ancient Near East. I also think that the tellers of the original tale, long before it was written down, had something much more important to tell us, in the story of Adam (which is not a name but the word for "man") and Chavah/Eve (the word for "life") and their children Cain and Abel, but it's much too long for a thread like this.

I am glad to see that you are at least capable of objectively examining your scriptures without preferring the preconception over the obvious. It bodes well for your success, here at TTA. We have a few Christians (and other types of theist) who have become cherished members of our little community... but it's pretty much impossible if the closest they come to real Biblical scholarship is "it says ____ in my KJV/NIV/NASB/etc., and so that's all there is to it!"

Usually, when a Christian comes here and says they have been a "student of the Bible", what they actually mean is that they read it and had a Sunday School teacher or preacher tell them what it means. Laugh out load

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-12-2016, 12:25 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  Is atheism just a religion of nonreligion? What I mean is are atheists especially ones in this forum just trying to proselytize people into atheism? And objectively could evolution and the views of Richard Dawkins be seen as just atheist doctrine? Am I even allowed to ask these questions or are they too inconvenient? I know atheists don't see themselves as religious. But really haven't atheists just replaced God with no god or just themselves as gods?


Ask what you like but no, atheism is not a religion. It is telling that from your point of view it would seem that something must replace god in one's beliefs. But we're not you and haven't had your upbringing. Likewise neither Dawkins nor any of the other talking circuit atheists represent a bible substitute for atheists. I've never read any of their books. There is no need for an orthodoxy or a dogma.

Atheists are all over the map on every other question. No one strives to align their beliefs with other atheists. Why would we do this?

Christianity really infantilizes its practitioners in so many ways. But those of us not in that religion don't look to abandon ourselves to some other savior. That idea is repugnant for many of us.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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29-12-2016, 01:04 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  Is atheism just a religion of nonreligion?

No.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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29-12-2016, 01:07 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(29-12-2016 12:25 AM)whateverist Wrote:  Atheists are all over the map on every other question.

Exactly. This very forum is evidence of that.

Quote:No one strives to align their beliefs with other atheists. Why would we do this?

Well, some definitely do. Group-forming has been advantageous to our species. It's a biological imperative. People form groups over everything and anything.

Disciple, you can say damn-near anything on this forum. You can even be a theist here and generally liked, or an atheist here and generally disliked (i.e. me.)
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29-12-2016, 01:56 AM (This post was last modified: 29-12-2016 02:09 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  Is atheism just a religion of nonreligion?

No. It's lack of belief in gods.

Quote:What I mean is are atheists especially ones in this forum just trying to proselytize people into atheism?

Correct term would be enlighten Wink.

And even if TTA atheists would try to enlighten others then is still wouldn't make atheism religion. But here's the thing - I don't see preaching here.

Quote:And objectively could evolution and the views of Richard Dawkins be seen as just atheist doctrine?

Asking if atheism can be considered religion and then mentioning TE and Dawkins. How surprising.

But to answer your question - no. Dawkins isn't "prophet" of atheism and accepting TE isn't necessary to be one.

Quote:Am I even allowed to ask these questions or are they too inconvenient?

They are too inconvenient only in your mind as it seems to me that you already have your "truth" - atheist worship Dawkins/evolution/themselves.

Quote:I know atheists don't see themselves as religious. But really haven't atheists just replaced God with no god or just themselves as gods?

You could say that some atheists like to worship but that's all.

To be serious, no.

Quote:What I mean by that is instead of worshipping a cosmic being whose existence cannot be proven or even disproven (Much like a flatlander attempting to prove the existence of a space lander or debunk the existence thereof) you just merely worship science, technology, the laws of physics, or simply yourselves. Could you be doing this without even realizing it?

Wonder how one can worship laws of physics? It's interesting why theists want atheists to worship something. Maybe cause lack of belief scare them? So when atheist will worship y instead of x such fear would be reduced and he will be no different than Muslim in this regard?

Quote:And aren't atheist beliefs just as outrageous and incredible as any religious beliefs?

There are no atheist beliefs.

Quote:My case in point is the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

Dawkins again. Who would have thought. Maybe try using Dennett or Harris for a change. It still would be stupid but at least original.

Quote:He admits in his forward he isn't truly an atheist but rather a scientific pantheist.

Citation needed.

Quote:He has no problem attributing god-like qualities to the universe or even the multi-verse.

Citation needed.

Quote:In fact his only logical argument against the existence of God kinda falls apart in the fourth chapter. He says he cannot accept God as a theroy because he is a "skyhook" and an "infinite regression." And he rejects outright something as "complicated as God" as self existent and eternal.

If he really says so then he is right.

Quote:Yet he has no problem with a Darwinian multi-verse (which is infinity regressive not to mention must be very complicated by it's very nature) or a big bang/big crunch multi-verse (which is also very complicated and eternal/self existent by it's nature). Really by the same maxim Dawkins reject God as a theory, so is his counter argument rely.

Citation needed.

Also lack of belief in universe creating space fairy isn't equal to thinking that scientific explanations have some merit.

Quote:But my point is let's say I buy Dawkins case. Isn't that just as if not more so incredible than any creator?

Read a book other than Bible. Krauss A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing and Hawking and Mlodinow The Grand Design would be a good start.

Quote:And wouldn't that take the same measure of faith as belief in any god?

It wouldn't but I doubt that I can convince you otherwise. As your post show you already have your Truth.

Quote:Or is it different because we replace a god with a universe or even a non-anthropomorphised force of nature. I don't know atheists help me out here.

It is obvious that you don't know or even can't comprehend. But to be honest I think that you're trolling and you're bad at it and not even remotely original.

(29-12-2016 12:07 AM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  Rocket: I have been a student of the Bible for the last three years. I have found no reason in the text itself to not accept evolution. The Bible merely claims God created the universe and everything in it.

So what about man? Creation from dust fits TE perfectly I must say Rolleyes Or it is metaphor (just like any other inconvenient part of the Bible)?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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29-12-2016, 02:58 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
G'day mate, and welcome. Smile

(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  Is atheism just a religion of nonreligion?

Atheism is not a religion; it's simply a personal state of mind. Nothing more, nothing less.

(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  What I mean is are atheists especially ones in this forum just trying to proselytize people into atheism?

No. And if you'd taken the time to read through the various forums here you'd already know the answer. Please take the time to do so before asking any further nonsensical questions.

(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  And objectively could evolution and the views of Richard Dawkins be seen as just atheist doctrine...

[copious amount of bullshit deleted]

... I don't know atheists help me out here.

And please try to at least post comments with some depth of intellect. If you intend to post this sort of puerile rubbish, nobody will take you seriously.

Dodgy

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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29-12-2016, 04:10 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  I don't know atheists help me out here.

As far as I am aware there is no cure for idiocy. Sorry Undecided

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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29-12-2016, 05:38 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
Only the Reformed Atheists count as a religion.

The rest of the bastardly lot is considered just flotsam and jetsam......

Theologically speaking.....



[/mandated snarkiness]

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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29-12-2016, 06:23 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  Is atheism just a religion of nonreligion?

No. I suggest you look up the definition of religion.

(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  What I mean is are atheists especially ones in this forum just trying to proselytize people into atheism?

We are answering questions, encouraging questions and stating our beliefs.

(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  And objectively could evolution and the views of Richard Dawkins be seen as just atheist doctrine?

No. Atheism and evolution are not related.

(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  Am I even allowed to ask these questions or are they too inconvenient?

Considering the education that you claim to have, these questions seem rather disingenuous.

(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  I know atheists don't see themselves as religious.

With good reason.

(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  But really haven't atheists just replaced God with no god or just themselves as gods?

No.

(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  What I mean by that is instead of worshipping a cosmic being whose existence cannot be proven or even disproven (Much like a flatlander attempting to prove the existence of a space lander or debunk the existence thereof) you just merely worship science, technology, the laws of physics, or simply yourselves.

No. Science is one of many tools that we use to understand the world. It produces results, unlike praying and saying "god did it."

(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  Could you be doing this without even realizing it?

No.

(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  And aren't atheist beliefs just as outrageous and incredible as any religious beliefs?

There are no such things as "atheist beliefs". Atheism is a response to one question. That is the extent of it.

(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  My case in point is the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

Then you have no case. Dawkins does not represent atheism or atheists. He is a prominent scientist and author. He speaks for no one but himself.

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29-12-2016, 06:36 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
No, I haven't substituted atheist dogma (not sure what this would be, even) for my one-time belief in religious dogma, such as a god having created everything and having laid down a set of rules for humans to keep, or else. I've just stopped believing in god and admitted what many religious people refuse to: I don't know, and I'm going to try, hard, not to twist evidence in the direction of what I want to be true. And I'm going to work to the best of my ability to understand and interpret evidence.

I don't "believe" in science the way I "believed" in religion. The word belief is fuzzy and loaded and describes many different processes. So, for science: I respect the scientific process as self-correcting and ultimately concerned with accuracy, and because of this, I tend to have confidence in its results and explanations, for the very reason that if better explanations or anomalous data are found, the explanations will be amended.

Religious belief entails accepting a set of assertions (or else) while rejecting the idea that these assertions will ever need to be amended. When religious dogma is tested and found wanting, religion's response is to punish the testers and rationalize away the contrary result. So I have no confidence in religion's reliability. History and sociology and my own reading and experience tell me that religion has been a great way to keep the power and agency from changing hands--no matter how much religious dogma may say about helping the poor. Religions use the divine as a big ole thumb on the scale on the side of power. Therefore, in addition to lacking confidence for religion's explanations about the world, I lack confidence (and respect) for religion's ability to improve most people's lives. (If you're a televangelist or an archbishop, your life's going to be pretty sweet, though.)

I personally don't care to proselytize; I grew up evangelical and had my fill of it then. Some atheists do. This site is a community, and the proselytizing on it tends to be done by theists such as yourself who join for a while. I know that it's way easier to proselytize online than in real life, but I'm not sure how many points your god is going to reward you for typing rather than getting out in the street and yapping at passersby. Pretty sure you'd do better by going out in the street and feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc., but that's kind of hard, it's easier to go onto an atheist website and accusing them of having a religion.

At any rate, I have no desire to convert you to atheism. Hope that sets your mind at ease.
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