Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
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29-12-2016, 06:48 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  Is atheism just a religion of nonreligion? What I mean is are atheists especially ones in this forum just trying to proselytize people into atheism? And objectively could evolution and the views of Richard Dawkins be seen as just atheist doctrine? Am I even allowed to ask these questions or are they too inconvenient? I know atheists don't see themselves as religious. But really haven't atheists just replaced God with no god or just themselves as gods? What I mean by that is instead of worshipping a cosmic being whose existence cannot be proven or even disproven (Much like a flatlander attempting to prove the existence of a space lander or debunk the existence thereof) you just merely worship science, technology, the laws of physics, or simply yourselves. Could you be doing this without even realizing it? And aren't atheist beliefs just as outrageous and incredible as any religious beliefs? My case in point is the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. He admits in his forward he isn't truly an atheist but rather a scientific pantheist. He has no problem attributing god-like qualities to the universe or even the multi-verse. In fact his only logical argument against the existence of God kinda falls apart in the fourth chapter. He says he cannot accept God as a theroy because he is a "skyhook" and an "infinite regression." And he rejects outright something as "complicated as God" as self existent and eternal. Yet he has no problem with a Darwinian multi-verse (which is infinity regressive not to mention must be very complicated by it's very nature) or a big bang/big crunch multi-verse (which is also very complicated and eternal/self existent by it's nature). Really by the same maxim Dawkins reject God as a theory, so is his counter argument rely. But my point is let's say I buy Dawkins case. Isn't that just as if not more so incredible than any creator? And wouldn't that take the same measure of faith as belief in any god? Or is it different because we replace a god with a universe or even a non-anthropomorphised force of nature. I don't know atheists help me out here.

What does any of that have to do with atheism? I became atheist at the age of ten at a time and place where such info wasn't even available to me.

You don't need to be versed in science to see that the bible reads much the same as Grimm's fairy tales.

It's a bunch of fantasy stories with a moral component. Totally unrealistic, but a vehicle to describe desired behavior. Lots of books do the same job, and a lot clearer and better defined, I might say.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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29-12-2016, 07:17 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  Is atheism just a religion of nonreligion? What I mean is are atheists especially ones in this forum just trying to proselytize people into atheism?

You came here, we did not seek you out.

Quote:...you just merely worship science, technology, the laws of physics, or simply yourselves.

Define "worship". I understand how science works and respect the process as the best method we know of to determine what is actually real. I don't see how "worship" applies except from a mindset that knows only submission to authority and can't grasp that people don't always feel the need to "worship" something.

Quote: My case in point is the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. He admits in his forward he isn't truly an atheist but rather a scientific pantheist. He has no problem attributing god-like qualities to the universe or even the multi-verse.

OK, since that is your case in point you should be able to cite the actual quote where he says he is a scientific pantheist. I just re-read the preface and the preface to the paperback edition and I do not see that in there. (I'm assuming "forward" is supposed to be "foreword" which is called the preface in the edition I have.)

It sounds like a reference to the Einstein quote "If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it". I've heard similar sentiments from others and it may be that Dawkins has said something along those lines. That's what is called metaphor and doesn't mean that they are ascribing intelligence or intent to the universe but only that they stand in awe of the beauty and scope of it. It's poetry, not theology.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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29-12-2016, 07:26 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
It's the Only True Religion. That's what I say to trigger people who think atheism is a religion.

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29-12-2016, 08:26 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(29-12-2016 12:07 AM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  Rocket: I have been a student of the Bible for the last three years. I have found no reason in the text itself to not accept evolution. The Bible merely claims God created the universe and everything in it. But it says nothing of His exact methods. I have also found that many Fundamentalist Christians don't even know what it is they claim to believe. For example they claim their most fundamental doctrines (Trinity, Immortal Soul,etc) come from the Bible. But an objective view of the text itself one can see the Bible makes no such claims. And that these views are more Platonic views and pagan beliefs woven into Christianity. But most fundamentalists either fail to realize this or refuse to do so. But thank you Rocket.

Actually the Bible claims no such thing (a creation of a "universe). The Hebrews had no conception of a "universe". All they knew about was the Earth (on 4 pillars) Sheol, (the underworld), and the firmament, in which a stars were embedded.
"1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."
The waters (the "deep" and time were assumed). They got their myths from Babylonian mythology, (as that's where the priests were when they wrote and assembled the myths during the Exile).

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29-12-2016, 08:34 AM (This post was last modified: 29-12-2016 09:40 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
Quote:you just merely worship science, technology, the laws of physics, or simply yourselves.

No
No one worships science or technology or Physics.
They work as methods.
You don't really know any atheists, do you.
1/2 the Divinity School I attend are non-believers.

Quote:Could you be doing this without even realizing it?

No. Oh. And you, the messiah, have come to enlighten us ? Fuck off.

Quote:And aren't atheist beliefs just as outrageous and incredible as any religious beliefs? My case in point is the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. He admits in his forward he isn't truly an atheist but rather a scientific pantheist.

No. The only thing atheism is, is a dismissal of the incoherent notion of a god. There is no coherent definition for it.

Quote:He has no problem attributing god-like qualities to the universe or even the multi-verse. In fact his only logical argument against the existence of God kinda falls apart in the fourth chapter.

No one cares what he says or writes. Your assumption he is our Pope, is fucked up.

The fundamental nature of Reality is not "(intuitively) logical". Using "logic" to argue for or against the gods is amateurish at best, and one of the profoundly idiotic/simplistic/childish things that ANYONE, (theist or atheist) does. (See the work of Dr. Sean Carroll).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-12-2016, 09:20 AM (This post was last modified: 29-12-2016 09:32 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  But really haven't atheists just replaced God with no god or just themselves as gods? What I mean by that is instead of worshipping a cosmic being whose existence cannot be proven or even disproven you just merely worship science, technology, the laws of physics, or simply yourselves.

Yes, but I'm not really an atheist what with being God incarnate and all. Scant though it is, there is more evidence that I AM God rather than some fantastical creature in the sky nobody has seen in a fundoshi before. I AM is to be. To be is God. Ergo, I AM God. This is the Gospel of Man. So saith The Word. quod erat deduncetratum

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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29-12-2016, 09:34 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
I'm gonna break this up into smaller chunks and answer that way. Walls of text are not good for my eyes.


(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  Is atheism just a religion of nonreligion? What I mean is are atheists especially ones in this forum just trying to proselytize people into atheism?

Some are anti-theists who want to see religion end. Some try to convince people that theism isn't rational. Others don't give a shit what other people think so long as we can live our lives in peace. I personally have better things to do than worry about what other people think in the privacy of their own minds. If they don't try to push their dumb ideas onto me, then I don't care. There are seven billion people in this world, many of them think stupid things. Meanwhile I have bridges that are in desperate need of repair that I CAN do something about.


Quote: And objectively could evolution and the views of Richard Dawkins be seen as just atheist doctrine? Am I even allowed to ask these questions or are they too inconvenient?

Yes, they could be questioned. If you had good reason to question them then please do. I happen to think professor Dawkins is probably wrong in some of his details on memetic theory.

I don't think atheists in general have a "doctrine" or even a cohesive set of beliefs. Some are rational. Some are not. They simply share one position on one topic.


Quote:I know atheists don't see themselves as religious. But really haven't atheists just replaced God with no god or just themselves as gods? What I mean by that is instead of worshipping a cosmic being whose existence cannot be proven or even disproven (Much like a flatlander attempting to prove the existence of a space lander or debunk the existence thereof) you just merely worship science, technology, the laws of physics, or simply yourselves. Could you be doing this without even realizing it?

I take some issue with the term worship. It implies that I see something as absolute or unquestionable. I don't. There is nothing that is held in unquestionable reverence. To be sure, there are things I admire. But I don't think there is anything that is immune from questioning. And there is nothing I would not give up in an instant if it was wrong or harmful.

Quote: And aren't atheist beliefs just as outrageous and incredible as any religious beliefs? My case in point is the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. He admits in his forward he isn't truly an atheist but rather a scientific pantheist. He has no problem attributing god-like qualities to the universe or even the multi-verse. In fact his only logical argument against the existence of God kinda falls apart in the fourth chapter. He says he cannot accept God as a theroy because he is a "skyhook" and an "infinite regression." And he rejects outright something as "complicated as God" as self existent and eternal. Yet he has no problem with a Darwinian multi-verse (which is infinity regressive not to mention must be very complicated by it's very nature) or a big bang/big crunch multi-verse (which is also very complicated and eternal/self existent by it's nature). Really by the same maxim Dawkins reject God as a theory, so is his counter argument really.

Sorry, I fixed a spelling error.

I don't think you fully understand his argument. The problem with a supernatural god is that it is incredibly complicated by necessity. A supernatural designer with the will and foresight to craft the universe would by necessity be very complicated. But the idea that there could be currently unknown natural laws that explain the origin of our universe is much simpler. His examples were just that, examples. We don't know what's going on, but he posits a few examples that would be simpler than a supernatural disembodied mind.

Quote:But my point is let's say I buy Dawkins case. Isn't that just as if not more so incredible than any creator? And wouldn't that take the same measure of faith as belief in any god? Or is it different because we replace a god with a universe or even a non-anthropomorphised force of nature. I don't know atheists help me out here.

One of the hardest things to do is to admit our ignorance. To not know is not an excuse to believe in something ridiculous. I know enough about the universe to know that is amazes me. I know that I don't understand it all. But I don't believe it was a active agent that created it.

I have to be ok with not knowing. I only have so much time. And I have chosen a field that has little to do with that. As such I have to settle for not knowing. But that doesn't give me free license to believe any positive claim. Positive claims require positive evidence.
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29-12-2016, 09:42 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(29-12-2016 09:20 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(28-12-2016 11:12 PM)Disciple 21x Wrote:  But really haven't atheists just replaced God with no god or just themselves as gods? What I mean by that is instead of worshipping a cosmic being whose existence cannot be proven or even disproven you just merely worship science, technology, the laws of physics, or simply yourselves.

Yes, but I'm not really an atheist what with being God incarnate and all. Scant though it is, there is more evidence that I AM God rather than some fantastical creature in the sky nobody has seen in a fundoshi before. I AM is to be. To be is God. Ergo, I AM God. This is the Gospel of Man. So saith The Word. quod erat deduncetratum

All glory to the God Bob.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-12-2016, 09:48 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(29-12-2016 09:42 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(29-12-2016 09:20 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Yes, but I'm not really an atheist what with being God incarnate and all. Scant though it is, there is more evidence that I AM God rather than some fantastical creature in the sky nobody has seen in a fundoshi before. I AM is to be. To be is God. Ergo, I AM God. This is the Gospel of Man. So saith The Word. quod erat deduncetratum

All glory to the God Bob.

Rise Fullerene and be anointed God by swearing undying allegiance to SLACK on this holy fundoshi draped across thy face. Long Live SLACK! Long Live Bob!

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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29-12-2016, 10:03 AM
RE: Is Atheism just another religion under guise of "non-religion"?
(29-12-2016 09:48 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(29-12-2016 09:42 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  All glory to the God Bob.

Rise Fullerene and be anointed God by swearing undying allegiance to SLACK on this holy fundoshi draped across thy face. Long Live SLACK! Long Live Bob!

Lol, I didn't know about Bob!

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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