Is Christianity Evil?
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22-05-2017, 12:33 PM
RE: Is Christianity Evil?
(22-05-2017 09:20 AM)big green mouth Wrote:  
(22-05-2017 08:12 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I came to these conclusions by reason. That's how. By observing and identifying the facts of reality.

Let me define my terms. When I speak of self-sacrifice, I'm not speaking of kindness towards others or good will towards others. I'm speaking of making the good of others your primary purpose in life. I'm talking about a duty ethics. I define sacrifice as the giving up of a value for something of lesser value or of no value. That's precisely what the morality of self-sacrifice teaches: that in order to justify one's existence one must live for the good of others, placing one's own interests second. In the case of religion the sacrifice is to please a god. In the case of collectivism it is the good of the group. In both cases it is the good of some other.

But look at the facts. Man is a biological organism. He faces a fundamental alternative of life vs. death. Life is a process of self-generated, self-sustaining action. Every organism, no matter what it is, must take action to gain the values it needs in order to sustain it's life. If it fails in that action or is unable to take it, it dies. On my view, life is the standard and the purpose of morality. The morality of life tells one to take such action and live.

The morality of self sacrifice is based on the exact opposite premise; that one must live for others, placing one's own interests last. Whatever the value, one must give it up to others, up to and including one's life.

Now we have a contradiction; what a man must do to be moral is the opposite of what he must do to live. Therefore the morality of self-sacrifice is anti-life.

Collectivism is the corollary to the morality of self-sacrifice. It places the standard of the good as the group, not the individual. The individual must sacrifice his own interests to the interests of the group. You doubt me, go read any of the speaches of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Lenin. See for yourself how many times they use the terms self-sacrifice and altruism. They were explicit altruists.

It's either one or the other: self-sustaining or self-sacrificing. You can't mix the two. What would your standard?

I Wrote:That our moral sense is not anchored by objective moral values does not mean that our moral inclinations are without foundation. Our feelings give us feedback on the world just as surely as our eyes and ears do. A person who does not feel pain will likely die. The body has a wisdom the reasoning mind lacks. Johnathan Haidt postulates that our moral reasoning has five dimensions, or bases. 1) harm, 2) fairness, 3) authority, 4) loyalty/ingroup allegiance, and 5) purity or sacredness. These five bases all matter objectively in the working out of functioning of a social group or species. [...] Those who care not for harming others will be detrimental to the functioning of the social group. Those who disregard fairness, likewise. Morality is a brain shortcut for caring for these values, which ultimately is caring about the well being of the group. An individual on their own can decide not to care about the well being of the group, but that choice is not without consequences for our own. We are evolved to care about our overall well-being as a group, and these 5 bases are merely the mechanism by which we implement that bias. We are biased to be pro-survival, and likewise we are biased in favor of actions that preserve these properties. Acting otherwise is an attack upon the group, and such attacks are not ignored by the group. If you were the caretaker of a group, would you tolerate harm, unfairness, disobedience, disloyalty and defamation? Do you really need anything more than the combined interest of the group to justify your actions? Humans are a social species. Our moral emotions are an artifact of that.

First of all, I disagree that it's all one or the other. Matter of fact, it's hard to see the instinct of self-preservation itself as having any moral dimension. We act so as to preserve our life and pass on our genes, but it isn't considered morally good that we do so. It's just something we value from a morally neutral standpoint. It's an instinct, and you run into problems when you start elevating instincts to the level of moral goods. We have an instinct to harm others when we are harmed. Does that make it a moral good? I don't think so.

I'm investing a lot in Haidt's particular framework, but I think he's right when he points out these five themes as being core to morality. These are all values which promote the well-being of the group. In a sense, they are hard-wired altruisms, and I don't think that's a bad thing simply because it takes priority away from more self-centered values.

I think you don't see it as an either or proposition because you don't think in terms of principles. You said you are a subjectivist after all.

Isn't considered good by whom? I certainly consider it good. Look, if you don't care about preserving your life then why do you even need a moral code? Do you understand that it's only in the context of life that morality has any meaning? Life is what makes morality necessary in the first place. Rocks don't need it. Seashells on the beach don't need it and neither do cars. These things don't face the alternative that biological organisms do. So if you don't consider preserving your own life as a moral activity, then you ignore the metaphysical basis of morality and you commit the fallacy of the stolen concept. You don't consider preserving your own life as moral but I'm guessing you'd consider preserving the life of others as moral or maybe not?

But what could you possible have to disagree with if you are a subjectivist as you say? You don't think there are any objective principles in the first place so why take issue with my view of Christianity? There seems to be a breach between your thinking and your actions.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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22-05-2017, 12:45 PM
RE: Is Christianity Evil?
(22-05-2017 12:33 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Look, if you don't care about preserving your life then why do you even need a moral code?
If one does not consider personal survival to have 100% primacy in 100% of situations, that's not even remotely the same thing as not caring about preserving one's life at all.

In most contexts I care more about my own survival than that of others. If I had an opportunity to take a bullet for my wife, on the other hand, I'd do it instinctively. At less of an all-or-nothing level, if I were called to public service in some capacity and was somehow uniquely able, willing and/or qualified to answer the call, I might well do so despite not being personally that interested or not having sought it out for myself.

We make choices for the greater good (which you disparage as altruism) all the time. Sometimes it is based on empathy for others, sometimes on empathy for ourselves, and sometimes, on empathy for our future selves (e.g., making myself uncomfortable by exercising or eating foods other than the ones I'd prefer, in the belief that my future self will be healthier in the long run). Sometimes it's based on a mixture of all those things.

By your logic, any willingness on my part to go on a diet means I don't care about enjoying food.
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22-05-2017, 12:55 PM
RE: Is Christianity Evil?
I remember a priest's sermon about uniqueness of Christian teaching-'forgiveness'.He said that it cannot be found in other religions but only in christianity.
He gave an example of a family who devoted their life to spread gospel.The people who hated them burned the father and his son alive.The wife was the only survivor.When interviewed she said that she forgives the people who brought such cruelty on her husband and son.
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22-05-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: Is Christianity Evil?
(22-05-2017 12:55 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  When interviewed she said that she forgives the people who brought such cruelty on her husband and son.

Admirable if it's genuine and not only dogmatic lip service. I would hunt their guts and kill them with my bare hands. It's certainly not a negative example of christianity.

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22-05-2017, 01:06 PM
RE: Is Christianity Evil?
(22-05-2017 12:55 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  I remember a priest's sermon about uniqueness of Christian teaching-'forgiveness'.He said that it cannot be found in other religions but only in christianity.
He gave an example of a family who devoted their life to spread gospel.The people who hated them burned the father and his son alive.The wife was the only survivor.When interviewed she said that she forgives the people who brought such cruelty on her husband and son.

As usual, "the priest" is wrong.
The concept of forgiveness is not AT ALL unique to Christianity, and religions FAR OLDER taught about it for centuries, while Jebus' god was stoning and killing infants, to obtain revenge. Weeping
http://jackkornfield.com/the-practice-of-forgiveness-2/
It's also a cultural and human value, apart from religion. At the end of the Marriage of Figaro, (Mozart) the Countess forgives her husband, and never once invokes religion.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-05-2017, 01:10 PM
RE: Is Christianity Evil?
(22-05-2017 01:02 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(22-05-2017 12:55 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  When interviewed she said that she forgives the people who brought such cruelty on her husband and son.

Admirable if it's genuine and not only dogmatic lip service. I would hunt their guts and kill them with my bare hands. It's certainly not a negative example of christianity.

I still say it's negative. Christians uphold these examples as right. They're not right, they're twisted.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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22-05-2017, 01:15 PM (This post was last modified: 22-05-2017 01:25 PM by sea_tiger.)
RE: Is Christianity Evil?
To impress upon young minds that one is a sinner and needs forgiveness, I find that disturbing.
There are also different ways this word is misused in some situations.This excerpt from Breaking their will :
.....Kibbie Ruth speaks to this problem in Child Maltreatment, as she highlights
a number of faith-based ideas that abuse victims are told, such as "suffering is
a virtue," the importance of "suffering in silence," and "God never gives you
more than you can bear." Critics refer to faith communities' "culture of forgiveness,"
in which abuse victims are discouraged from feeling anger and
instead are told to forgive their perpetrators. In one particularly troublesome
case, a teacher-who was mandated by law to report abuse-refused to report
the physical abuse of a student. Even after a student told her that her father
had been abusing her and her brother, the teacher struggled with the decision
to report the crime. In deciding against the idea, the teacher told a friend that
she did not do so partly because during prayer she "heard Jesus saying that we
are not to pass judgment."..
........
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22-05-2017, 01:26 PM
RE: Is Christianity Evil?
I think Jesus was a normal guy who was a preacher who became deified by the reigning powers of the day so they could effectively control the masses


So in essence I think the religion is not inherently evil but the power and influence it has been misused over centuries

Oh no. He's here - God
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22-05-2017, 01:32 PM
RE: Is Christianity Evil?
(22-05-2017 01:26 PM)Cypher44 Wrote:  I think Jesus was a normal guy

Oh noes! And only two posts below Bucky's.

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I'm tempted to say religion is what you make of it but with the Abrahamic vileness I just can't. It's held humanity and science back and crushed humankind's spirit and dignity for so long that only thing I see is a vile, vile cancer that must be excised to the bone.

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"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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22-05-2017, 01:41 PM
RE: Is Christianity Evil?
(22-05-2017 01:32 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(22-05-2017 01:26 PM)Cypher44 Wrote:  I think Jesus was a normal guy

Oh noes! And only two posts below Bucky's.




I'm tempted to say religion is what you make of it but with the Abrahamic vileness I just can't. It's held humanity and science back and crushed humankind's spirit and dignity for so long that only thing I see is a vile, vile cancer that must be excised to the bone.

When I said, I meant your average mortal not the Son of God who is also God

That bit is confusing

Unless God reproduces asexually through mitosis

Oh no. He's here - God
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