Is Christianity bad for society?
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11-11-2010, 07:56 AM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
There are no Greco-Reman or Jewish records from the time period that validate in any way Jesus' existence, life or crucifixion. Any texts that mention him were written years later after the Jesus myth has spread.

There are no validated artifacts that have anything to do with Jesus. There have been dozens of frauds over the years, though.

The gospels are completely untrustworthy as they were written 200 or so years after his presumed death and they contradict each other in several places.

I'm waiting for your agreement.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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11-11-2010, 09:55 PM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
BnW supported my arguement very well. He is more knowledgable in that field than I am. You need to provide PROOF to support your arguement. I too await your agreement.
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11-11-2010, 11:59 PM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
(11-11-2010 09:55 PM)No J. Wrote:  BnW supported my arguement very well. He is more knowledgable in that field than I am. You need to provide PROOF to support your arguement. I too await your agreement.

Well let's get further into the history of it shall we.

Jesus supposedly lived between 4 BCE and 30 CE.

That means we should find external records (outside of the bible) in about that time period and possibly 30 years or so after.

The earliest records we have that make any mention of Jesus are from Josephus
(a jewish historian) around 90 CE. He states:

"Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works-....He was the Christ..."

I would highly suggest looking up the whole paragraph but scholars have long been in dispute as to if this passage is even legit. The paragraph is absent from earlier copies of Josephus text and many people of the time used Josephus as a proof of Christianity but not one of them referenced this passage.

It only begins to appear after the 4th century copies of his works suggesting this was added later by another copier.

So the earliest source we have concerning Jesus is highly questionable and makes note of Jesus only in 3 paragraphs (the other 2 concern Jesus being the brother of James).

I could go on about how the language in the paragraph is highly suggestive of Christian writing rather then how a Jew would have recorded history of Jesus but It's best if we move on.

The next writing we can find along the timeline does not occur until the Twelve Caesars in 112 CE by this point in history we are dealing strictly with second hand accounts as people did not have the longevity to survive for more then 60 or 70 years at most. It makes no mention of Christ by name but does mention a sect of Christianity had risen in Rome by this point and were punished.

The other way of trying to confirm history of Jesus is trying to tie events to the bible to historical records to see if they line up. The eclipse of the sun when Jesus died seems to be a good place to start as many studies of astronomy were kept at the time.

Except that is no record of any solar eclipse at any point in the years of Jesus and also Easter occurs during the full moon. The moon is only full when it's on the opposite side of the earth from the sun. Thus making an eclipse during Easter impossible.

There is also no mention of Earthquakes in the records of the region when Jesus was supposedly crucified.

If you want we can get into why Tertullian and Martyr are not reliable sources for the Jesus claim but trust me when I say I found them just as invalid when I did the research.

So if Jesus was not historical then what is he?

Legend. More and more supernatural and extraordinary elements are added to the Jesus story as time went on chronologically with the writings of the gospels. Put the books in chronological order sometime and start reading if you want to see how a legend evolves in written works.

edit: Sorry it's a long post I know but trust me when I say I'm more then willing to provide plenty of extra proof if you wish. Smile
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12-11-2010, 12:07 AM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
We can see the same thing happening today with the evolving of stories of UFO's, chupacabra and the Bermuda Triangle.
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12-11-2010, 12:39 AM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
Don't forget about the Cargo cults. It's the most modern and classic example of the formation of a religion.
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12-11-2010, 01:12 AM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
I am not well versed on the cargo cults at all. I was never sure that they weren't just a hoax because I had seen a video once and then nothing after that. Shortly there after another video I had seen from the same part of the world proved to be a hoax. the hoax and the cargo cult video looked so I similar that I expected that there was a good chance that they may be related hoaxes. Is this accurate?
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12-11-2010, 07:25 AM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
Godless

That was excellent, thanks for getting my back.

Another piece of evidence to debunk the Jesus myth is the Dead Sea scrolls. For some reason these are sometimes cited as "proof" of Jesus' existence. However, the scrolls predate the supposed birth of Jesus by at least a few hundred years and don't mention him at all.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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12-11-2010, 08:08 AM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
The consensus on the Wikipedia page would disagree with you godless.

Currently the consensus of opinion on the historicity of Jesus is that "the majority of scholars who study early Christianity believe that the Gospels do contain some reliable information about Jesus."

We should appreciate the exploration of the subject but also keep in mind the best information we have.
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12-11-2010, 08:43 AM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
I find it interesting that you choose that particular page for your evidence of consensus. It's an argument (sometimes a very childish and petty one) and therefore is not a consensus at all.

You've put, "the majority of scholars who study early Christianity believe that the Gospels do contain some reliable information about Jesus." in quotations. I assume it's from the wiki article, but who, exactly are you quoting? Also, lets keep in mind that the majority of scholars who study early christianity are also very likely christians, and therefore most likely biased.

So many cats, so few good recipes.
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12-11-2010, 08:48 AM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
I love wikipedia but it is by no means an authority on anything. Quoting wikipedia as evidence of anything is laughable.

Find me a text that provides actual archeological evidence that has been studied and reviewed to support your claim, then we can have a conversation.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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