Is Christianity bad for society?
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12-11-2010, 02:27 PM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
Fr0d0 while the wiki page should not be dismissed as a whole it's only real use is the external links it provides for it's sources.

Think of Wikipedia as a blank page with a subject on top that anyone can walk up to and write on. The librarian may always have an eraser but whatever ends up on that page for the most part is going to reflect however has the most dedication to come back and keep writing their worldview on the page.

The one great thing about Wikipedia is how people can leave their sources alongside their writings for their reasoning. Those link to external sources on the topic are about the one great thing wiki has to offer. Never quote a wiki page directly always go to the source.
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12-11-2010, 09:01 PM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
@ Stark Raving: I apologise if I misunderstood. It's not my intention to beat anyone around the head with unsupported assertions, but to sometimes plead for a fair hearing when I feel there is an imbalance. I fully accept the atheist position and hold no prejudice against it.

Interesting post too GlassyKitten

Kudos TheSixthGlass on that post. I think if Christians make the claim of 'magic' there really should be no corroborating evidence.

@ BnW: Hehe, yes, I think I can guess the answer Wink

The historicity isn't really my interest. I am interested but not to a level that would satisfy yourself I think.

Politics immediately comes to mind... but still you might expect something to survive a purge. Even insiders pushing their own agenda: You only have to look at the atrocities committed by the first popes to see that they were so corrupt that anything like that could easily fly with them.

How about this one: holy men performing miracles was no big deal at the time. It was more a regular occurrence. There was no word for 'spiritual' as that was their way of life. Think present day India. It'd be easy for great claims to be lost in the deluge of similar accounts... even regarded as trivial.

@ Godless: Thanks for the advice Wink
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16-11-2010, 02:24 PM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
(12-11-2010 09:01 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  Kudos TheSixthGlass on that post. I think if Christians make the claim of 'magic' there really should be no corroborating evidence.

So, correct me if I'm wrong here - your statement is that Christians do make the claim of "magic" and therefore there is no corroborating evidence? If that is your position, and there is no evidence, then why believe it? And if you're stating that there can be no evidence, then again, why believe something for which there can be no evidence for?

(12-11-2010 09:01 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  The historicity isn't really my interest. I am interested but not to a level that would satisfy yourself I think.
Not completely sure if this was directed at me - but this is one of those statements for which I have to ask - why not? You claim to be a Christian (if memory serves) and yet you don't care whether or not Jesus existed? Or whether or not he performed miracles? Or whether or not he was the incarnation of God? Why would you not wish to be as sure as possible that your beliefs are true?

(12-11-2010 09:01 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  How about this one: holy men performing miracles was no big deal at the time. It was more a regular occurrence. There was no word for 'spiritual' as that was their way of life. Think present day India. It'd be easy for great claims to be lost in the deluge of similar accounts... even regarded as trivial.
Again, not completely sure I'm following this right. So, you're saying that miracles were commonplace in ancient times. But that they actually happened. They were not the result of trickery or legend or superstition or misunderstandings of nature - they actually occurred. So, all you need to go on is a report from ancient times that such a thing happened? Most modern day Christians point to Jesus' miracles as proof of his divinity - are you saying there were other divine people in this time period (including those from other religions)?

Please correct me if I've misunderstood something or misrepresented something you wrote.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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16-11-2010, 05:17 PM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
Hi TheSixthGlass

1. There can be no proof of the supernatural. If there were it would be cease to be supernatural. So belief in the supernatural has nothing to do with proof, it based on faith instead. Not 'blind faith', but faith which equals trusting information you accept to be true.

2. I said "isn't really my interest" and not 'not interested'. The guts of my belief isn't ever based on the supposed material existence or non existence of anything. If your interested in that then that is nothing to do with religion. The truth of the the subject of my faith is not rooted in anything physically extant.

I'm sure though faith that Jesus existed, performed miracles and is God. I can have no proof.

3. No I'm suggesting that there might have been a hell of a lot of trickery, just like in modern day India. In that environment actual miracles wouldn't be that special. Everyone would already be tired of the many claims.
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16-11-2010, 05:51 PM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
(16-11-2010 05:17 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  1. There can be no proof of the supernatural. If there were it would be cease to be supernatural.

Bollocks. We've been over this. There not only can but must be evidence of the supernatural, even if we cannot understand how it works, or else it does not exist.

Quote:So belief in the supernatural has nothing to do with proof, it based on faith instead. Not 'blind faith', but faith which equals trusting information you accept to be true.

Which is blind faith.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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16-11-2010, 06:00 PM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
(12-11-2010 09:01 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  The historicity isn't really my interest. I am interested but not to a level that would satisfy yourself I think.

HOLD UP.
so you don't care about the legitimacy of your own holy scripture?!?
how can you worship a book about a magical sky daddy when you don't even care whether the book is what it claims to be?!

(Note, just joined thread, may be something I've missed. Correct me if I'm wrong)

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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16-11-2010, 06:30 PM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
(16-11-2010 05:51 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(16-11-2010 05:17 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  1. There can be no proof of the supernatural. If there were it would be cease to be supernatural.
Bollocks. We've been over this. There not only can but must be evidence of the supernatural, even if we cannot understand how it works, or else it does not exist.
You're discussing this with Ghost. You seem less prone to branding the pitchfork with him, so let's leave it at that shall we, for the sake of your cognitive processes.

(16-11-2010 05:51 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
Quote:So belief in the supernatural has nothing to do with proof, it based on faith instead. Not 'blind faith', but faith which equals trusting information you accept to be true.
Which is blind faith.
You just shat out of your mouth.
(16-11-2010 06:00 PM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  HOLD UP.
so you don't care about the legitimacy of your own holy scripture?!?
how can you worship a book about a magical sky daddy when you don't even care whether the book is what it claims to be?!

(Note, just joined thread, may be something I've missed. Correct me if I'm wrong)
Yeah read the post above UTM for the answer to that one.
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16-11-2010, 07:31 PM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
(16-11-2010 06:30 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  You're discussing this with Ghost.

No, I'm pretty sure that I was speaking to you. I haven't talked to Ghost on this forum in quite some time.

Quote:
(16-11-2010 05:51 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
Quote:So belief in the supernatural has nothing to do with proof, it based on faith instead. Not 'blind faith', but faith which equals trusting information you accept to be true.
Which is blind faith.
You just shat out of your mouth.

Did I now? Care to explain why rather than just spouting mindless insults?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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16-11-2010, 11:04 PM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
common guys let up on Fr0d0 He's been shown almost every fallacy with his logic and I think a few people have gone into great detail on what's wrong with his reasoning.

If he still doesn't get it there's no point in trying to force anything.

If you still want to really go on Fr0d0 then I think it would be far more interesting to hear what specific evidence has you so convinced.
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17-11-2010, 08:47 AM
RE: Is Christianity bad for society?
(16-11-2010 11:04 PM)Godless Wrote:  If you still want to really go on Fr0d0 then I think it would be far more interesting to hear what specific evidence has you so convinced.
From what I can tell, he doesn't want to share that either because we wouldn't accept it. Which, and forgive me for painting with a broad brush here, is typical theist nonsense. Time and again I see it - you ask for a theist's evidence, or their reasoning, or simply what it is that personally convinced them, and they won't give it to you.

Which leads me to one of three conclusions: 1. their experience, whatever it may have been, is so vague and fuzzy and wrapped in emotion-based 'reasoning' that they don't even remember what it was. 2. they realize it's bad or weak evidence. or 3. they think so highly of their spiritual connection with god that it makes them arrogant. They think themselves to be above a heathen and heretic such as me, and do not wish to "cast pearls before swine."

Please note that I'm mostly speaking of personal experience, not necessarily of anyone here, including fr0d0. This is an internet forum and I try not to presume anyone's demeanor or thoughts.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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