Is God "Necessary"?
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17-05-2012, 05:04 AM
RE: Is God "Necessary"?
(17-05-2012 03:12 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(16-05-2012 04:57 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Still... I don't see why the Father, being capable of anything and everything, couldn't just come as a human being to show us what he'd be like as a human being. I don't understand the necessity of using Jesus for such a role. And because the Father could fulfill the Son's duties, an argument for God out of necessity would do a horrible job proving the Son existed.

Fair enough. I certainly don't want to step in and start defending Christian theology when I don't believe it to begin with. No
I feel you. I hate doing it too, though I feel that I play devil's advocate far too often nowadays. Even in this one I assume, for the sake of argument, that God the Father is a necessary being. I appreciate Bucky Ball trying to shoot this down, too, but this just goes to show how repulsive it is to most of us to assume that our opponents are right, even in a hypothetical. And I don't expect anybody to have to defend a position that they don't agree with.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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17-05-2012, 06:34 AM (This post was last modified: 17-05-2012 07:15 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Is God "Necessary"?
(17-05-2012 05:04 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  Even in this one I assume, for the sake of argument, that God the Father is a necessary being. I appreciate Bucky Ball trying to shoot this down, too, but this just goes to show how repulsive it is to most of us to assume that our opponents are right, even in a hypothetical. And I don't expect anybody to have to defend a position that they don't agree with.

Star,
If you're really interested in the debates about the development of the Trinity, (or Trinitarian Theology), and it's absurdity, or the change in the historical positions of the (supposed) "orthodox" position on the "divinity" of the son, (325 CE) ...(different in each gospel.....which BTW is the reason attempting a "re-write" by a non-scholar is such a misguided enterprise, as the historical/scholarship details, which re-writer was apparently unaware of, are no longer obvious..."bull in china shop"), you might be interested in reading the debates in the proceedings of the Council of Nicea, when they were fighting about how to word the Nicean Creed, where the Trinity was declared as orthodox, and compliance was demanded with the Doctrine of the Incarnation ... "Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum Verum de Deo Vero, Genitum non Factum, consubstantialem Patri" (in Latin).... bla bla bla. Very interesting to history nerds. Also sorta blows it all out of the water, to see how it changed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarnation...cea.2C_325

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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17-05-2012, 09:07 AM
RE: Is God "Necessary"?
Different sects of Christianity have different viewpoints on their own theology, which is ironic considering that most sects have either slightly or greatly deviated from the original dogma (if there is one). Catholics believe in the concept of purgatory for instance is a belief that is said to be unique to this sect. Groups of theists disagree with other, they argue over it, and neither side is willing to accept the other, and a new sect is thus born.

Imagine if science worked that way, with a certain group not willing to accept the evidence even though it is presented in front of them. Chaos will be the result, and scientific progress is basically retarded by petty arguments. A case in point would be the Current Wars, with Edison promoting D.C and Tesla promoting A.C. To demonstrate the "dangers" of A.C. and other of Tesla's discoveries (such as X-rays), Edison did a lot of crazy public experiments just to prove himself right.

There are indeed cases where scientists have differing viewpoints on each other's theories, for instance the wave-particle nature of light. Those who once believe in Maxwell's theory of light tried to refute Einstein's results, by doing their own experiments, but failed. The scientists accepted Einstein's new theory in the end after their experimentation. But still there were objections due to the wave nature of light being demonstrated conclusively in experiments. A new concept, the wave-particle duality nature of light is thus introduced, as a model to explain the observed properties of light.

Eventually, regardless of how many arguments made, how many experiments used to prove the other wrong, there will be eventually a general consensus on how each mechanism or model works, based on certain conditions. Both theories are sometimes combined to become one, while sometimes two theories are instead used in the same context, but each theory are only true under certain conditions. Case in point: Newton's Law of Gravitation and Einstein's Principle of Relativity.

Back to religion. If the God each sect believed in is the same person, what's with all the different sects? This is considering the same God wrote the same laws for everyone to follow, with the same guidelines.

In my opinion. Vagueness. It is vagueness of the scripture that led to so many different sects. The scientific method in contrast serves to clear doubts by constant questioning of existing models and constant experimenting.

Welcome to science. You're gonna like it here - Phil Plait

Have you ever tried taking a comfort blanket away from a small child? - DLJ
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20-05-2012, 09:10 AM
No.
If a god is necessary, we're in deep shit since no gods exist.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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