Is God Omnipotent
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09-04-2017, 04:19 PM
RE: Is God Omnipotent
(09-04-2017 11:52 AM)socialistview Wrote:  As a christian i study the bible and believe he is. Any replies?

......

Okay, everyone else has met our snark quota, so you get a serious reply from me.

... somehow. Give me a minute. Taking your post seriously will take some doing.

....

Okay, so. There are several passages in the Bible which are pretty easy to interpret as implying that the character of God in the Bible is omnipotent... usually Old Testament stuff buried in a bunch of ass-kissing.

There are also quite a few other passages that implicitly imply that either God's power is limited, or his ability to use it intelligently is limited. For example, iron chariots can prevent God's chosen people from triumphing on the battlefield even if God is with them. Or, somehow failing to do away with all the Nephelim in the Flood. Or, God wants to do something about Original Sin, and the best he can think of is let it perpetuate for roughly 4000 years through countless generations of wicked people, genocides he commits, genocides that others commit on his orders, and genocides which others commit on their own because, you know, sin, before he can finally fix it all.... rather than just snapping His Omnipotent Fingers and doing away with it five seconds after it happens.

Now I'm sure a good apologist can spin and bullshit until these are no longer contradictions within the Bible. I'd in turn look at that and see them as twisting logic to fit their conclusion, rather than looking at the actual logical conclusions of the text itself.

So, a devout Christian might read the Bible and conclude that the God it describes is omnipotent.

I, in turn, read the text and view it as being inconsistent and incoherent on the subject or, at best, told by unreliable narrators who place exuberance over accuracy in their praise of a very flawed character.

But the important part is this:

NONE OF THAT MATTERS.*

We're talking about what the Bible says... and before we can move from talking about what the Bible says to talking about what's real in the world, we'd first need to establish that what the Bible says about God being omnipotent is true.

Without that step...

Without that step, we can conclude from reading the source texts that Harry Potter did, indeed, attend Hogwarts.

Without that step, we can conclude that Anakin Skywalker did indeed betray and hunt down the Jedi, becoming Darth Vader in the process.

Without that step, we can conclude that Zeus commands lightning and thunder, and that Thor does as well.

Without that step, we can conclude that the world was created by Ptah.

Without that step, we can conclude that Frodo carried the Ring into Modor to cast it into Mount Dhoom.

Without taking that step of confirming that a source is truthful, either in whole or at least about the specific point of contention, we can conclude a billion billion things, many of them mutually-contradictory, and yet supposedly all true.

In short, to proceed without that step is to abandon all coherent logic, capacity to reason, reliability of knowledge, or actual care for what the truth truly is.

So as a Christian, you are trying to study the Bible to understand the reality of God? WITHOUT establishing whether the Bible is a good guide to reality?

......

.... okay, nope, sorry. Can't take you seriously. Laughat



*I still think this line is missing some emphasis. Is there an admin that can implement some BLINK tags?
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09-04-2017, 04:30 PM
RE: Is God Omnipotent
(09-04-2017 04:19 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Give me a minute. Taking your post seriously will take some doing.

Laugh out load

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09-04-2017, 04:31 PM
RE: Is God Omnipotent
(09-04-2017 11:52 AM)socialistview Wrote:  As a christian i study the bible and believe he is. Any replies?

I think the word you mean is " impotent".

So, yes.

He's a pansy cunt, that needs his followers to "do his work".

Lazy ass, limp dicked slacker....



Anything else you need answered??

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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09-04-2017, 05:10 PM
RE: Is God Omnipotent
As some people here have noted, God's abilities differ in various parts of the Bible.
The idea of an omnipotent God reaches it's zenith in the NT.

Christian theologians have long proclaimed god is all powerful omnipotent, in the most expansive meaning of the word. But that creates all sorts of logical problems that theologians have struggled with for centuries. Plus it causes problems with ancillary claims about God's attributes. The problem of a perfectly powerful and perfectly good God.

The Rock type paradoxes. God's simplicity and more. The literature on God's omnipotence and the nature of omnipotence is vast, and theologians have spilled barrels of ink debating the issue, the hows and wherefores of omnipotence.

The problem is to maximize the theoretical abilities of God while avoiding the paradoxes and problems. Some have simply abandoned these claims all together because of the problems, for example, Process Theology and Open theologians.

Rene Descartes notoriously stated strongly that God creates the laws of physics and mathematics, and could change them if he so desired. (Descarte's letters to Mersennes) Why then is there evil if God could do that? Following that line of thought, some theologians have suggested God can do the logically impossible.
(Descarte's thesis has been called universal possibilism by Alvin Plantinga.)

If not so, where do the metaphysical necessities (2 + 2 = 4) come from? Materialism and metaphysical naturalism seem to rule even God, if we deny that God creates the logic of the Universe.

If God is a perfect being (perfect being theology) what is his relation with logic and the nature of reality?

As usual, initially seemingly simple ideas, "God's omnipotence" soon turns into a mess of puzzles, paradoxes and logical dead ends. And the greater of a God that one can posit, the bigger and more insoluble the problems.

It would seem that if God loves us and cares about us and creates the very laws, logic and rules of the Universe, the Universe would be a far different place than it actually is.

So again, to my theist friends, what do you mean by omnipotent?

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

Cheerful Charlie
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09-04-2017, 05:13 PM
Is God Omnipotent
(09-04-2017 11:52 AM)socialistview Wrote:  As a christian i study the bible and believe he is. Any replies?


I think Judges 1:19 gives the definitive answer.

[Image: 5570dc31fc97720eb496d91eca527a61.jpg]

Iron chariots? We got nukes now.
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09-04-2017, 05:26 PM
RE: Is God Omnipotent
Well, mainstream Christianity accords God the attribute of omnipotence. Nuns and priests made this is claim when I was in Catholic school, citing: "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, 'With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.'" (Matthew 18:26)

We must keep in mind, however, that Bible passages are claims, not facts.

Consider also the following:

"And they shall stand in despair before the white cliffs of the world, and shall chant from their empty tomes in vain, for their words are nothing! And Erú shall prevail against His enemies and they shall be cast into the Void, for their enchantments are naught and their gods are helpless before Him." (The Silmarillion, 17:82)

Verily, I say unto you, my god is more omnipotent than your god. Checkmate Christians! Yes Any questions?
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09-04-2017, 06:46 PM
RE: Is God Omnipotent
The character Yahweh as described in the bible is either not omnipotent, or trying extremely hard to appear not omnipotent.

He catastrophically fails to achieve what he wants, and gets out-witted even near the start of the story by humans hiding from him in the garden. He explicitly can't defeat people at another point, "because they have chariots of iron". Sure, you can make all the excuses you want. But this character is not written as all powerful. It certainly thinks highly of itself and claims to be; but the story does not back up its claims.

He adopts crazy, long winded approaches to achieve simple goals, both in the story and "in reality", where he could just do things directly.

If this character represents anything real, which I consider to be a negligible possibility, I've not even noticed it doing anything besides "keeping reality afloat". Whatever it's doing, it's indistinguishable from nothing, along with a reality that "just is".

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09-04-2017, 06:51 PM
RE: Is God Omnipotent
If your god is omnipotent, then he is not good. If you worship this god, then you're not good, either.

Enjoy being an evil-enabler.
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09-04-2017, 07:01 PM
RE: Is God Omnipotent
For some reason the term wankstain springs to mind. Drinking Beverage
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09-04-2017, 07:18 PM
RE: Is God Omnipotent
Genesis 11:5-7

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

1) Why would God need to "come down" to see the city? It's stupid in the extreme to suggest that an omnipotent (and by default, omniscient) being couldn't see the city just fine from wherever the hell he was no matter where that might be. He should have been able to sit on a lawn chair on a beach on the other side of the space-time continuum and still see the city as if he were actually standing there.

Instead, he has to physically go there in order to see what was going on which heavily implies that his knowledge and perpective of humanity is as limited as ours -- effectively, line-of-sight. This means he has no ability to judge us for our sins because, unless he's following YOU all the time, God can't possibly know what you're getting up to while he's monitoring someone else.

2) If God is truly omnipotent, why is he so worried about the potential of humanity? Our single language gives us unlimited potential? Didn't the stupid sod create us that way in the first place -- and didn't his supposed omniscience allow him to see this outcome? Or is God following someone else's script? Perhaps his actions are preordained so he must allow things to happen even though, if he could, he would change those events. Which, of course, would make him non-omnipotent.

What truly boggles me, as well, is that we're talking about a Bronze Age society here. I mean, we're talking about extremely primitive stuff going on and yet this Almighty God feels threatened by ... Bronze Age technology, Bronze Age knowledge, and Bronze Age architecture. Seriously, wow -- these guys want to build a tower made out of brick and tar and God goes apeshit because humanity is getting too powerful. Now we build towers that rise a quarter-mile into the air, towers made of glass, steel, and composite materials those ancients would have perceived as being impossible. Funny how God doesn't seem to give a shit now. Only then.

3) And why the fuck ... okay, this is just one of those stupid, facepalming moments that Christians really need to think about here. Can't you see that you're worshiping an incompetent God? I mean flagrantly incompetent?

Because Christianity is one of those hateful religions that claims to have a mandate to conquer the world -- if not with the sword than with proselytizing and missionaries. How in the name of fuck did God expect that to happen once he confused everyone's languages? Oh, that was just brilliant, Yahweh, just brilliant. Way to shoot yourself in the foot with that blunder.

Now that no one can understand each other, it means Christianity can't spread. It means the Bible has to be translated from this language to that language and again to that language -- and look where that's gotten us. It means people of similar languages will band together essentially creating tribalism, organized warfare, and, here's the biggy, other religions. By the time Christianity ever got to those parts of the world, those other religions were so entrenched that conquering the world was now an impossibility. Not even warfare could do the job -- especially if some pagan tribe had advanced into the Iron Age what, with all those iron chariots and all.

Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

And that's the God Christians revere.

"If my God exists, then the laws in the Bible should apply to everyone. I am certain my God exists, so ..." -- words of a theocratic fascist justifying theocratic fascism.
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