Is God a Delusion? The Debate That Never Was: William Lane Craig vs Richard Dawkins?
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15-11-2011, 04:50 PM
Is God a Delusion? The Debate That Never Was: William Lane Craig vs Richard Dawkins?
I don't know if this is the right place to post this but...


http://www.youtube.com/drcraigvideos#p/a...3HCthi2i_o

Okay, I don't believe William Lane Craig has anything we don't have any argument against, right? I'm from Norway, and one of my christian "friends" sent me this video, but I can't get with me most of what he's saying... English isn't my first language, and he's talking quite fast, or so I think.

If anyone could help me a bit, with links to where what he's saying is in text, or if you could help me with some arguments against what he's saying... or something... because this "friend" of mine just won't let me forget those things I don't have an answer for, and when I give him a link to a video of Richard Dawkins that explains it, he says he doesn't want to see his videos because: "he is childish, and doesn't have the guts to face theists in debates". Pure bullshit.


Sincerely
Almo
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16-11-2011, 11:55 PM (This post was last modified: 16-11-2011 11:59 PM by daemonowner.)
RE: Is God a Delusion? The Debate That Never Was: William Lane Craig vs Richard Dawkins?
Well, no matter how childish Richard Dawkins is, Craig is psychopathic. He has been in the spotlight for defended the genocide of entire populations of people, and defending the proposition that torturing animals isn't really immoral because they don't really feel pain.
Richard Dawkins has already given his reasons (pretty good reasons too) for why he won't debate Craig, and he is always debating and writing, so his schedule is pretty full.

Craig has been using the same arguments since the 1970's. They have been debunked again and again, but he just keeps using them. He is only interested in debating to "win", not to find what is true.

What arguments does your friend keep refering to?

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

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17-11-2011, 12:56 AM
RE: Is God a Delusion? The Debate That Never Was: William Lane Craig vs Richard Dawkins?
Craig is a dishonest God-merchant, a sleazeball who would pimp out his own mother if it got him points in a debate. Apologies, Almo, but watching a two-hour video in which he features prominently is my idea of hell.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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17-11-2011, 01:02 AM
RE: Is God a Delusion? The Debate That Never Was: William Lane Craig vs Richard Dawkins?
One reason I believe Dawkins refused to debate with him (and most theists) is because he sees that it would give them credence being on the same stage (i. e. "equals") and he sees their views as completely without merit. To him, Christians believe in Santa Clause and keep raving about reindeer. I haven't heard of this Craig guy, but I have a feeling that he just makes the typical theist arguments. I tried watching the video, but tuned out after 2-3 minutes of "here are our credentials (theology school) and he's written 30 books, let me talk about some of them." Perhaps someone else has more patience...

Craig's primary argument seems to be the Cosmological Argument, which is simple to refute - what caused the "first cause"? If we assume that there was indeed a first cause (perhaps infinite, perhaps exempt) how would that prove that the first cause is God? Furthermore, why the Christian God?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmologica...rarguments

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17-11-2011, 03:22 AM (This post was last modified: 17-11-2011 03:30 AM by mysticjbyrd.)
RE: Is God a Delusion? The Debate That Never Was: William Lane Craig vs Richard Dawkins?
(15-11-2011 04:50 PM)Almo Wrote:  I don't know if this is the right place to post this but...


http://www.youtube.com/drcraigvideos#p/a...3HCthi2i_o

Okay, I don't believe William Lane Craig has anything we don't have any argument against, right? I'm from Norway, and one of my christian "friends" sent me this video, but I can't get with me most of what he's saying... English isn't my first language, and he's talking quite fast, or so I think.

If anyone could help me a bit, with links to where what he's saying is in text, or if you could help me with some arguments against what he's saying... or something... because this "friend" of mine just won't let me forget those things I don't have an answer for, and when I give him a link to a video of Richard Dawkins that explains it, he says he doesn't want to see his videos because: "he is childish, and doesn't have the guts to face theists in debates". Pure bullshit.


Sincerely
Almo
Dawkins has debated with theists before,



Warning, this video is absolutely infuriating.
Do not watch more than say 5 minutes of it as its a complete waste of time.
And people wonder why he refuses to do it anymore lol.


The problem, no with just this video but in general, is that its not really a debate. Its more like a professor talking to a tape recorder that just keeps looping the same message over and over. Every "debate", no matter who is involved, evolves into the atheist pushing the theist into an intellectual corner, that should force them into admitting error, yet instead they just whip out their trump card, "MAGIC". The best/worst, depending on which side you are on, thing about this trump card is that they can use it over and over, and they do. By the end the atheist is completely and thoroughly annoyed, the audience has not been swayed in the least, and the theists always think they have somehow won the debate.

Its actually a lot like political debates in the US. The conservatives make outrageous statements that are wild declarations at best and lies at worst. The liberals then spend the entire time arguing common sense facts. And in the end the conservatives simply ignore anything they say and declare themselves the winner. And this is why the US govt is completely broken; so I question as to why anyone would think that this type of discussion would accomplish anything.


"Dawkins refused to debate with him (and most theists) is because he sees that it would give them credence being on the same stage (i. e. "equals")"
This is also a very valid reason not to engage in the "debate".
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17-11-2011, 08:43 AM
RE: Is God a Delusion? The Debate That Never Was: William Lane Craig vs Richard Dawkins?
(16-11-2011 11:55 PM)daemonowner Wrote:  Well, no matter how childish Richard Dawkins is, Craig is psychopathic. He has been in the spotlight for defended the genocide of entire populations of people, and defending the proposition that torturing animals isn't really immoral because they don't really feel pain.
Richard Dawkins has already given his reasons (pretty good reasons too) for why he won't debate Craig, and he is always debating and writing, so his schedule is pretty full.

Craig has been using the same arguments since the 1970's. They have been debunked again and again, but he just keeps using them. He is only interested in debating to "win", not to find what is true.

What arguments does your friend keep refering to?

I'm pretty sure none of these things are fair to say. "Psychopathic" has an actual dictionary definition that suggests a diagnose-able medical condition.

Yes, it's true that Craig has been using the same argument for God's existence - the Kalam Cosmological Argument - since the 70's. It has been argued against again and again, but not "debunked"... rather, despite his repetition, his opponents never seem to put up a good argument against it.

The main reason for this is that Craig picks his opponents based on their lack of debate skill. While Dawkins knows the issue of God's existence/nonexistence very well, he's not a debater. If Dawkins did take Craig up on this challenge, he'd probably lose, despite being "right".

The arguments his friend may be referring to could be cited here.

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17-11-2011, 09:17 AM
RE: Is God a Delusion? The Debate That Never Was: William Lane Craig vs Richard Dawkins?
(17-11-2011 08:43 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(16-11-2011 11:55 PM)daemonowner Wrote:  Well, no matter how childish Richard Dawkins is, Craig is psychopathic. He has been in the spotlight for defended the genocide of entire populations of people, and defending the proposition that torturing animals isn't really immoral because they don't really feel pain.
Richard Dawkins has already given his reasons (pretty good reasons too) for why he won't debate Craig, and he is always debating and writing, so his schedule is pretty full.

Craig has been using the same arguments since the 1970's. They have been debunked again and again, but he just keeps using them. He is only interested in debating to "win", not to find what is true.

What arguments does your friend keep refering to?

I'm pretty sure none of these things are fair to say. "Psychopathic" has an actual dictionary definition that suggests a diagnose-able medical condition.

Yes, it's true that Craig has been using the same argument for God's existence - the Kalam Cosmological Argument - since the 70's. It has been argued against again and again, but not "debunked"... rather, despite his repetition, his opponents never seem to put up a good argument against it.

The main reason for this is that Craig picks his opponents based on their lack of debate skill. While Dawkins knows the issue of God's existence/nonexistence very well, he's not a debater. If Dawkins did take Craig up on this challenge, he'd probably lose, despite being "right".

The arguments his friend may be referring to could be cited here.

IMO, it has been debunked, and quite easily. A) First Cause is subject to the same rules of logic. Pleading otherwise is illogical - why can we automatically assume what we are calling the "first cause" is without a cause? B) The argument that the first cause is infinite is also baseless - we have no evidence or experience of an infinite object or being. None. Therefore those arguing that the first cause is an infinite being are presuming an infinite being to exist and working off that unfounded assumption. C) Even if we were to somehow concede the existence of a first cause, that is still not proof of God and moreso, is not proof of the Christian God.

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17-11-2011, 09:24 AM
RE: Is God a Delusion? The Debate That Never Was: William Lane Craig vs Richard Dawkins?
(17-11-2011 08:43 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  Yes, it's true that Craig has been using the same argument for God's existence - the Kalam Cosmological Argument - since the 70's. It has been argued against again and again, but not "debunked"... rather, despite his repetition, his opponents never seem to put up a good argument against it.

The main reason for this is that Craig picks his opponents based on their lack of debate skill. While Dawkins knows the issue of God's existence/nonexistence very well, he's not a debater. If Dawkins did take Craig up on this challenge, he'd probably lose, despite being "right".

The arguments his friend may be referring to could be cited here.

The Kalam argument is debunked by its logical inconsistency. It devolves into infinite regress and so it is logically incoherent.
Dawkins is quite a good debater and wouldn't lose such a debate; but as another poster said, the loser would just keep playing the magic card. He won't debate these people any more because it is not useful. He quotes a colleague when he says "That would look good on your CV, not so good on mine."

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17-11-2011, 09:42 AM
RE: Is God a Delusion? The Debate That Never Was: William Lane Craig vs Richard Dawkins?
Quote:The Kalam argument is debunked by its logical inconsistency. It devolves into infinite regress and so it is logically incoherent.
Dawkins is quite a good debater and wouldn't lose such a debate; but as another poster said, the loser would just keep playing the magic card. He won't debate these people any more because it is not useful. He quotes a colleague when he says "That would look good on your CV, not so good on mine."

Azaraith and Chas - The Kalam argument is not "logically inconsistent". It does devolve into an infinite regress, but so does The Big Bang... whether arguing the first cause is a singularity or a God, either way we simply don't have scientific evidence to support where the first cause came from. In which case, to suggest one by default, is an Argument from Ignorance. But his debate opponents rarely mention this fallacy or address it. I'm not saying that there is no answer to the Kalam argument or that it is perfect, but that his opponents don't answer it properly. They treat it much like you do, to simply assert that it is imperfect - but if you don't address why, you get a response like "the scientific argument has the same problem", and that's often what his opponents get. Skepticism is the answer to such an argument, not a deconstruction.

And to merely state, even emphatically, that Dawkins is quite a good debater is not evidence of such. William Lane Craig does it for a living, and has been for many years. He's got the experience, while Dawkins has repeatedly mentioned that he doesn't debate. I've obviously read The God Delusion, I've seen the quote, and so we both know this fact of his lack of experience (he won't do it because he doesn't feel he benefits from it). Debating isn't just about the facts and evidence of your case, but how well you present them; also, about how well you know your opponent's arguments and the rebuttals to them. It's a skill that's gained, like all skills, through practice and training. WLC has had both, Dawkins has had neither, and that is why I believe WLC is objectively better at debating than RD.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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17-11-2011, 09:43 AM (This post was last modified: 19-11-2011 07:14 PM by kim.)
RE: Is God a Delusion? The Debate That Never Was: William Lane Craig vs Richard Dawkins?




A magic sandwich promo with this very same video.... with a few extra statements. Wink
Who would show up at anything called "Rational Faith Rally"? It's a contradiction in itself. Craig is an ass.

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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