Is God a moral monster?
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06-05-2014, 07:11 PM
Is God a moral monster?
"God commanded rape."

"There is no reasoning with a rape apologist."

"God condones rape."

These are all remarks coming from people here and have been directed towards me so I will in this thread be addressing them.

Despite the fact that the ones making these statements have yet to provide a grounds for making them that would be objective and not a mere statement of opinion, I will answer them.

The most frequently chosen passage offered to support these assertions is the passage from Deuteronomy chapter 21. It reads:

10 “When you go out to battle against your enemies, and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take them away captive, 11 and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself, 12 then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and [a]trim her nails. 13 She shall also [b]remove the clothes of her captivity and shall remain in your house, and mourn her father and mother a full month; and after that you may go in to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go [c]wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, you shall not [d]mistreat her, because you have humbled her.

This passage gives instructions for how a woman is to be treated who has been chosen to be taken out of captivity by an Israelite and to be brought into the sacred bounds of marriage which at this time in history, was the most desirable thing that a woman could hope for. It afforded her a certain social status far above the status that she would have had as a captive, definite economic security, and the chance to have children at a time in history where women who had children were seen as being blessed, much like women today are still viewed.

God knowing the evil in men's hearts knew that certain laws would need to be put in place to keep men from taking advantage of these women and to protect them. So what does God do?

He gives us this passage.

Notice clearly in verse eleven, it is addressed to the man who intends to make the woman his WIFE. Not some sex slave, but his WIFE. In this culture, when a man decided to marry a woman he took on the responsibility of fully providing for and caring for the woman and if he failed to do so he would be subject to the Law.

He is commanded to bring the woman into his house. This means he is not allowed to build a separate little "whore house" out back where he keeps her as some sort of sex toy. He is to take her into his house where she is to shave her head and trim her nails. This was so that the woman might appear as unattractive as physically possible. She is to remove the clothes she was wearing when she was captured. Why? It was common for beautiful women in these particular accursed nations to wear ornate and costly garments that were overtly enticing and attractive in times of war to seduce their foes. It is not hard to imagine this at all for if women dress as they do today and their life does not depend on it, then think of what they were capable of when their city was being surrounded by an army!Drooling

All of the above was done to deter the man from marrying the woman just because she was hot. Tongue

God knew these men and knew their propensity for being carried away with lust by the appearance of a beautiful woman. So in order to make sure this marriage and consummation was not something based on mere lust and on a whim, He gave instructions that would make the man have to see the woman day in and day out for a full month in an unattractive state while she was also allowed to mourn for the loss she had experienced.

I imagine many a man during this month changed their mind about the whole thing and never even went through with it. Only those determined to go through with it did.

Only after a month of this, and only after the man had determined to make the woman his wife would it be allowed for him to have sexual intercourse with her and even then the passage is clear. It says he MAY do this, not that he MUST. There is no command here to have sex with the woman at all.

God after this, knowing the evil in men's hearts, and in order to give further protection to the woman says that the woman is NOT TO BE SOLD for money or MISTREATED if the man no longer want her to be his wife, but rather, must be free to go wherever she wishes!!!!

Now bear in mind, this is not just any woman. These women were women who had been taken alive as captives from some of the most wicked, most vile, most insidious societies that have ever existed. These societies and cultures made the Nazis look like the Little House on the Prairie family. Gasp

They were known for child sacrifice, debaucherous sexual rituals and barbaric treatment of men women and children of neighboring cultures. These women in question more than likely had participated either directly or indirectly in child sacrifice and temple prostitution to include all manner of filthiness like beastiality etc. etc.

So these were not some innocent little women that spent their days frolicking in the fields picking pansies. Many of them were hardened, barbaric, seductive and devastatingly wicked women that would make Aileen Wuornos look like Mary Poppins.

But God being the God He is, despite these women being who they were, put restrictions on his own people to make sure they were respected and protected!!!!!

Incredible. Today such women would be labeled by many as incorrigible and worthy of no respect whatsoever.

But God is not like man. He is merciful and loving and set up rules and laws so that even the lowest of the low would be protected from wanton abuse.

So you can see when looking at this passage, far from it saying what you all claim it says, it actually serves only to prove my point. That God is compassionate and has concern for people, especially women at a time in history when women were seen as little more than property by the majority of the cultures in existence.
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06-05-2014, 07:11 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
tl;dr

Yes he is.
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06-05-2014, 07:13 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2014 07:17 PM by kim.)
RE: Is God a moral monster?
tl;dr

If you think the figment of your imagination is an amoral monster... you just go right ahead and think it. Thumbsup

by the way... for grammatical reference ... I think you mean is god an amoral monster?

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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06-05-2014, 07:18 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(06-05-2014 07:13 PM)kim Wrote:  tl;dr

If you think the figment of your imagination is an amoral monster... you just go right ahead and think it. Thumbsup

by the way... for grammatical reference ... I think you mean is god an amoral monster?

This. And don't rape anyone. Regardless of what the Bible, Qur'an, Kama Sutra, or any other book says or doesn't say, don't rape anyone. M'kay?

*rides my beast back to work, holding the reins in one hand, my chalice of wine in the other, and trying to ignore the 10 stars revolving around my head. Being the Whore of Babylon can be tricky sometimes.*

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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06-05-2014, 07:19 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2014 07:22 PM by Jeremy E Walker.)
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(06-05-2014 07:13 PM)kim Wrote:  tl;dr

If you think the figment of your imagination is an amoral monster... you just go right ahead and think it. Thumbsup

by the way... for grammatical reference ... I think you mean is god an amoral monster?

I am using the term in a different sense than you think. The phrase is also the title of a book by Paul Copan. I am sure those people over at Baker Publishing Group would have known if the word was incorrectly used.
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06-05-2014, 07:22 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(06-05-2014 07:19 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(06-05-2014 07:13 PM)kim Wrote:  tl;dr

If you think the figment of your imagination is an amoral monster... you just go right ahead and think it. Thumbsup

by the way... for grammatical reference ... I think you mean is god an amoral monster?

I am using the term in a different sense than you think.

You should probably clarify. Be very specific and very clear. This way, it's easier to deal with your definitions and "senses."

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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06-05-2014, 07:24 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
There is no evidence that the god of the bible is any more real than any other deity myth. He is no more a moral monster or master than Zeus, Jupiter, Odin, Zoroaster, or Allah.

That being said, whether he is viewed as righteous or evil is a matter of your interpretation of a 3000 year old collection of ancient stories from a bronze age people.

I'll stick with - non-existent. Thumbsup
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06-05-2014, 07:27 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
Thanks for that, guy, I was just missing that special something PleaseJesus always brought to the forum.

"Rape isn't bad if they deserve it", eh?

How 'bout the genocide?

... this is my signature!
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06-05-2014, 07:28 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
I have addressed this to certain people here. None of which have replied yet.

So until they do, I will keep my posting in this thread to a minimum.

This thread is not an argument for God's existence.

It is directed to those who think the Bible contains commands to rape people.
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06-05-2014, 07:30 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
Laugh out load And I'm sure nooooobody who has posted thus far is under the impression that the Bible contains commands to rape people. Thumbsup

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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