Is God a moral monster?
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07-05-2014, 12:54 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 12:49 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  ....

Well, Vosur, you managed to REDIRECT the hostility, at least....

(Which, given the context, is quite impressive.)

Oh c'mon all the mods should have liked this by now.

I am disappoint.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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07-05-2014, 12:55 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 12:51 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 09:49 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  All of you affirm premise two of the moral argument with your outcries against rape.

You also affirm that apart from God, there would be no moral obligations.

Therefore you all believe God exists.


Moral obligations are a human construct, as I mentioned before. Morals are based on empathy (the survival of the species instinct) and enforced by the law.

If you want to know what happens when religious law is left to enforce morals - see Muslim countries, where gods commands are still taken literally and people are being stoned to death for all kinds of reasons.

Indeed.

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07-05-2014, 12:57 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
On the plus side, if there were any on the fence about the character of the god of the Bible and about those Christians who 100% defend it, at least we can thank Jeremy for clearing that up.

What Jeremy meant for evil has surely been turned around for good.

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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07-05-2014, 12:58 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 12:28 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 11:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  Why? As in why keep it civil?
I really want to know why anyone should be civil to this moral midget, this sorry excuse for a human, this deranged, delusional, disgusting piece of shit.

Please enlighten us.
Because a meaningful dialogue, as evidenced by this and many other threads, isn't possible when people are throwing insults at each other's heads. You won't be punished for uncivil behavior because it's not a violation of the forum rules, but that doesn't mean that I won't try to appeal to everyone's better nature.

We passed that point many pages ago. Jeremy isn't engaging in discussion.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-05-2014, 12:59 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
An hour time out ? Fuck me.... really ? Hope nobody else pisses off dad. Dodgy

If bullshit were music some people would be a brass band.
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07-05-2014, 01:06 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 09:49 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  All of you affirm premise two of the moral argument with your outcries against rape.

You also affirm that apart from God, there would be no moral obligations.

Therefore you all believe God exists.
I don't believe in morality and I don't believe in any gods,

Can you please explain to me why as a Christian you are being taught that a woman's wants and wishes are irrelevant?
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07-05-2014, 01:24 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
I have a serious problem with people claiming THIS God creates morals. That people get their morality from this God. It had been pointed out that no, they don't. This god endorses the idea that women are less than men, a completely misogynistic view. It has been pointed out that the CONTEMPORARY prevailing morality of this religion is that women are property and are obligated to submit to men. Yet people claim that this is the source of our morals. That this god is the reason we treat women as people and condemn rape. Bull. Fucking. Shit.

If you want to claim that rape is wrong, you need a source OTHER than the bible. Like say, the objective standard of human life and well being.
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07-05-2014, 01:38 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 12:59 PM)War Horse Wrote:  An hour time out ? Fuck me.... really ? Hope nobody else pisses off dad. Dodgy

Just you wait and see what happens when you piss off Mom....Tongue

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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07-05-2014, 01:41 PM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2014 01:54 AM by djhall.)
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 01:06 PM)Stevil Wrote:  [quote]
I don't believe in morality and I don't believe in any gods,

Can you please explain to me why as a Christian you are being taught that a woman's wants and wishes are irrelevant?

(07-05-2014 01:24 PM)natachan Wrote:  I have a serious problem with people claiming THIS God creates morals. That people get their morality from this God. It had been pointed out that no, they don't. This god endorses the idea that women are less than men, a completely misogynistic view. It has been pointed out that the CONTEMPORARY prevailing morality of this religion is that women are property and are obligated to submit to men. Yet people claim that this is the source of our morals. That this god is the reason we treat women as people and condemn rape. Bull. Fucking. Shit.

If you want to claim that rape is wrong, you need a source OTHER than the bible. Like say, the objective standard of human life and well being.

Here is how the game is played:

1) Pick your morality.

2) Attribute that morality to a god.

3) Create a story around your god and "its" morality.

4) Use difficult to falsify pseudo-evidence to "prove" the truth of your story. Your god appearing to long dead people, lost stone tablets, magic tricks, etc. are all good options, so long as you avoid making claims that unforeseen scientific developments will eventually prove false. For instance, who could have predicted that science could accurately measure the age of the earth and that the sun existed before the earth? Oops. But, hey, you're only human, so do the best you can. Its not like you've got an actual god that could really create strong, obvious, undeniable, and irrefutable evidence for your story.

5) When or if your proof is challenged, deny and challenge everything your detractors say and hope you can convince people that some of that doubt is "reasonable".

6) Deny that you or any other human made any subjective contribution to this process. This was all god. You just followed the evidence. You have no control over what god the evidence proves, or how you evaluate the proof supporting your god against other claims, or any ability to judge the claims of god to be false. This is an omniscient god with a mysterious plan after all, and we are just fallible and ignorant humans in need of his guidance.

7) Add incentives to accept your deity and penalties for failing to do so. Things like 72 virgins to own and molest for eternity make nice rewards, and an eternity of torment in hell is a reasonable penalty for failing to believe your narrative.

8) Now that you have laundered your subjective morality into nice seemingly nice clean objective morality, proudly wield it as a club to justify any atrocity you want. Doing this is tricky without appearing to be subjective, so you need to create a religion and religious leaders who are uniquely inspired and qualified to interpret the finer points of this objective morality. That way, people don't start thinking they can figure this stuff out for themselves.

Easy, right? Moral 3 card monte. We just need to know if you want a woman's wants and wishes to be irrelevant or not, and we can invent you a god with an objective morality to make it so.
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07-05-2014, 01:45 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 01:38 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 12:59 PM)War Horse Wrote:  An hour time out ? Fuck me.... really ? Hope nobody else pisses off dad. Dodgy

Just you wait and see what happens when you piss off Mom....Tongue

Meh, I grew up with a crazy kraut mother..... you dont scare me. Argue

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