Is God a moral monster?
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07-05-2014, 03:52 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 03:05 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 03:00 PM)Dom Wrote:  Yeah, but he is not a cunt, he is a prick.

When there are 17 pages of mostly insults thrown your way its hard to present the better side of yourself or your argument. I don't think jeremy is a bad guy. He is trying to justify the bible, which is hard, and make you bend yourself in uncomfortable ways in order to do it.

I appreciate that people have the freedom to say almost anything they want. It doesn't always make for the most fair and enlightening discussions though.

Also, I wouldn't contend that the point of this forum is to help theist come to athiesm, but I would point out that this would be practical impossible for that to happen here given the climate of debate in these forums. This is not a welcoming place for people with different ideas than the majority.
For at least the majority here, I think the issue is not so much theists, but certain types of theists. Theists who are 1) willing to discuss without the arrogant tone, 2) present substantive arguments (substantive being something that has some thought behind it and isn't just uneducated parroting), and 3) show a sincere effort at intellectual honesty are generally treated politely. "Politely" doesn't exclude being confronted by their errors in logic though - it's how they're confronted that is different. Theists who don't fit the above three traits are generally not treated as politely (and are also the majority) because they really want to lecture, preach, or troll, and not discuss.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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07-05-2014, 03:58 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 03:32 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 03:05 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  When there are 17 pages of mostly insults thrown your way its hard to present the better side of yourself or your argument. I don't think jeremy is a bad guy. He is trying to justify the bible, which is hard, and make you bend yourself in uncomfortable ways in order to do it.

I appreciate that people have the freedom to say almost anything they want. It doesn't always make for the most fair and enlightening discussions though.

Also, I wouldn't contend that the point of this forum is to help theist come to athiesm, but I would point out that this would be practical impossible for that to happen here given the climate of debate in these forums. This is not a welcoming place for people with different ideas than the majority.


Well fucking said.

Since I joined, I have noticed this struggle between the two main values of the forum:
1. Free speech
2. Community

And it ain't going away anytime soon.

To make it even more interesting... there are two extremes of the 'community' value:
a) Inclusive community - as you say, to help theists come to atheism
b) Exclusive community - a kinda anti-viral response.

The balance shifts all the time (or even at the same time in different threads) and there is no objective right or wrong because there are no specific governance goals that are being aimed for and each member has a different opinion on what they think the forum should be.

I'm a new moderator and what I have seen so far is a forum team trying (with a light a touch as possible) to keep that balance balanced to avoid the risk of capsizing / imploding / choose you own metaphor.

In the past, a shift towards the free-speech value has had a financial cost and being too slow to react to a deliberately disruptive member has lost us some valued members (that's when rule 5 came into being) and sometimes people get nervous that this might happen again... particularly when a sensitive subject is being discussed.

It will settle down (it always does) and then people will start complaining that the forum has become boring.

Shy

Freedom of speech, at any level, is long gone if we are going to be monitored for levels of civility.

If threads/posts that have anything viewed as less than civil comments were removed from the forum only Seth would be here listening to the sound of his own voice.

The forum does a pretty good job of self-policing. In 'extreme' cases someone with authority should step in. The naughty chair as a threat (jokingly used) is more effective than a mass time out.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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07-05-2014, 04:07 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 03:58 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 03:32 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Well fucking said.

Since I joined, I have noticed this struggle between the two main values of the forum:
1. Free speech
2. Community

And it ain't going away anytime soon.

To make it even more interesting... there are two extremes of the 'community' value:
a) Inclusive community - as you say, to help theists come to atheism
b) Exclusive community - a kinda anti-viral response.

The balance shifts all the time (or even at the same time in different threads) and there is no objective right or wrong because there are no specific governance goals that are being aimed for and each member has a different opinion on what they think the forum should be.

I'm a new moderator and what I have seen so far is a forum team trying (with a light a touch as possible) to keep that balance balanced to avoid the risk of capsizing / imploding / choose you own metaphor.

In the past, a shift towards the free-speech value has had a financial cost and being too slow to react to a deliberately disruptive member has lost us some valued members (that's when rule 5 came into being) and sometimes people get nervous that this might happen again... particularly when a sensitive subject is being discussed.

It will settle down (it always does) and then people will start complaining that the forum has become boring.

Shy

Freedom of speech, at any level, is long gone if we are going to be monitored for levels of civility.

If threads/posts that have anything viewed as less than civil comments were removed from the forum only Seth would be here listening to the sound of his own voice.

The forum does a pretty good job of self-policing. In 'extreme' cases someone with authority should step in. The naughty chair as a threat (jokingly used) is more effective than a mass time out.

I completely agree. Timeouts ard insulting as fuck. I'd rather be banned than patronized

I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!
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07-05-2014, 04:10 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 04:07 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 03:58 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Freedom of speech, at any level, is long gone if we are going to be monitored for levels of civility.

If threads/posts that have anything viewed as less than civil comments were removed from the forum only Seth would be here listening to the sound of his own voice.

The forum does a pretty good job of self-policing. In 'extreme' cases someone with authority should step in. The naughty chair as a threat (jokingly used) is more effective than a mass time out.

I completely agree. Timeouts ard insulting as fuck. I'd rather be banned than patronized

Exactly! Thumbsup

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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07-05-2014, 04:15 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 04:07 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 03:58 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Freedom of speech, at any level, is long gone if we are going to be monitored for levels of civility.

If threads/posts that have anything viewed as less than civil comments were removed from the forum only Seth would be here listening to the sound of his own voice.

The forum does a pretty good job of self-policing. In 'extreme' cases someone with authority should step in. The naughty chair as a threat (jokingly used) is more effective than a mass time out.

I completely agree. Timeouts ard insulting as fuck. I'd rather be banned than patronized

That is just it. You think people should not insult you. That insulting someone is a violation of some moral code of conduct that people are obligated to follow.

Why do you think that?
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07-05-2014, 04:16 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 04:15 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 04:07 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  I completely agree. Timeouts ard insulting as fuck. I'd rather be banned than patronized

That is just it. You think people should not insult you. That insulting someone is a violation of some moral code of conduct that people are obligated to follow.

Why do you think that?

Shut the fuck up.

You aren't here to interact. You are here to be a pain in the ass.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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07-05-2014, 04:19 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 12:51 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 09:49 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  All of you affirm premise two of the moral argument with your outcries against rape.

You also affirm that apart from God, there would be no moral obligations.

Therefore you all believe God exists.


Moral obligations are a human construct, as I mentioned before. Morals are based on empathy (the survival of the species instinct) and enforced by the law.

If you want to know what happens when religious law is left to enforce morals - see Muslim countries, where gods commands are still taken literally and people are being stoned to death for all kinds of reasons.

Kinda like this...
"Gang-raped Indonesian woman may be caned publicly"
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/gan...ly/1248212

What freaks me out the most about this thread is how it reminds me of the pedophile pushers from last year. Right now even the better angels of my nature have armed themselves and are calling for a public hanging.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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07-05-2014, 04:20 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 03:52 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 03:05 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  When there are 17 pages of mostly insults thrown your way its hard to present the better side of yourself or your argument. I don't think jeremy is a bad guy. He is trying to justify the bible, which is hard, and make you bend yourself in uncomfortable ways in order to do it.

I appreciate that people have the freedom to say almost anything they want. It doesn't always make for the most fair and enlightening discussions though.

Also, I wouldn't contend that the point of this forum is to help theist come to athiesm, but I would point out that this would be practical impossible for that to happen here given the climate of debate in these forums. This is not a welcoming place for people with different ideas than the majority.
For at least the majority here, I think the issue is not so much theists, but certain types of theists. Theists who are 1) willing to discuss without the arrogant tone, 2) present substantive arguments (substantive being something that has some thought behind it and isn't just uneducated parroting), and 3) show a sincere effort at intellectual honesty are generally treated politely. "Politely" doesn't exclude being confronted by their errors in logic though - it's how they're confronted that is different. Theists who don't fit the above three traits are generally not treated as politely (and are also the majority) because they really want to lecture, preach, or troll, and not discuss.

I am all for deconstructing arguments and calling that argument ridiculous if it is ridiculous. I just don't see the point in calling a person a cunt. It doesn't provide anything new to chew on, its just an empty insult. Some people add it at the end of an otherwise good post, like "your wrong for these reasons, and btw your cunt" which is not quite so bad. The worst is when people post just to say "hey, your a cunt". Why?

I would find it much more satisfying to pin them on their argument and show it to be false. Watching someone back track is great, and even if they don't admit it, you know your right and that is awesome. Calling someone a cunt makes that so much harder to do, because then half the conversation is "he's a cunt", and "no, I'm not a cunt" and all I want to do is nail the guy for being wrong.
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07-05-2014, 04:20 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 04:19 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 12:51 PM)Dom Wrote:  Moral obligations are a human construct, as I mentioned before. Morals are based on empathy (the survival of the species instinct) and enforced by the law.

If you want to know what happens when religious law is left to enforce morals - see Muslim countries, where gods commands are still taken literally and people are being stoned to death for all kinds of reasons.

Kinda like this...
"Gang-raped Indonesian woman may be caned publicly"
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/gan...ly/1248212

What freaks me out the most about this thread is how it reminds me of the pedophile pushers from last year. Right now even the better angels of my nature have armed themselves and are calling for a public hanging.

Do you affirm or deny the second premise of the moral argument which states:

2. Objective moral values and duties exist.
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07-05-2014, 04:21 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 04:15 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 04:07 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  I completely agree. Timeouts ard insulting as fuck. I'd rather be banned than patronized

That is just it. You think people should not insult you. That insulting someone is a violation of some moral code of conduct that people are obligated to follow.

Why do you think that?

Your birth certificate is an apology from the condom factory, you'll never amount to the man your mother is, if you were twice as smart, you'd still be legally retarded, and still think there's a God despite what nature did to you.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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