Is God a moral monster?
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07-05-2014, 11:10 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 06:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 03:32 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Well fucking said.

Since I joined, I have noticed this struggle between the two main values of the forum:
1. Free speech
2. Community

And it ain't going away anytime soon.

Seth has stated the purpose of the forum, and community trumps free speech.

Quote:To make it even more interesting... there are two extremes of the 'community' value:
a) Inclusive community - as you say, to help theists come to atheism
b) Exclusive community - a kinda anti-viral response.

Seth has stated the purpose of the forum, and a support community trumps those choices.

Quote:The balance shifts all the time (or even at the same time in different threads) and there is no objective right or wrong because there are no specific governance goals that are being aimed for and each member has a different opinion on what they think the forum should be.

The balance shifts because of the refusal to add a mission statement embodying Seth's wishes, resulting in confusion and vacillation.

Quote:I'm a new moderator and what I have seen so far is a forum team trying (with a light a touch as possible) to keep that balance balanced to avoid the risk of capsizing / imploding / choose you own metaphor.

In the past, a shift towards the free-speech value has had a financial cost and being too slow to react to a deliberately disruptive member has lost us some valued members (that's when rule 5 came into being) and sometimes people get nervous that this might happen again... particularly when a sensitive subject is being discussed.

It will settle down (it always does) and then people will start complaining that the forum has become boring.

Shy

Free speech is not a goal of the forum, but free expression is a means to achieve the goals.

I am well aware of this and ... watch this space. Working on it bro, working on it.

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08-05-2014, 12:11 AM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 08:22 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  You know what? I'm going to point something out. I skimmed a couple of posts so I might have missed it, but I'm pretty sure no one else has pointed it out yet. So I'm going to do it.

We've just made progress with Jeremy. Serious, serious progress. It was around page... what, 14, maybe? When he took a complete right turn and started in on the Moral Argument.

Now go back to the OP and look at what he made a right angle turn away FROM.

He has completely stopped attempting to defend the proposition that, in the Bible, God does not condone rape. And it was a sudden, total, full stop. No weaselly "okay, we're not going to agree on this, let's move on." Just total abandonment. No more attempt to defend the Bible.

This. Is. Progress.

No, it isn't.

He didn't change his retarded opinion, he didn't admit he was wrong, he is merely a cowardly weasel and unable to admit defeat.
He's not just moving the goalposts, he's changing playing fields.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-05-2014, 12:19 AM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
Well, I will give you credit for this: You did manage to find the one thing atheists are even more passionate about than believing in god.

The bible is the story of a brutal, pitiless, irate, infantile egomaniac with, well.... a god complex. If you are searching for the truth of this, I would recommend getting together with a local humanist and thinking for guidance on it together.
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08-05-2014, 12:33 AM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
To clarify Jeremy. I don't think it's my right to not be insulted. To be honest, I enjoy it good insult slinging session, it shows character Smile

I am specifically referring to being policed by the administration in a naughty chair fashion.

Micheal, if you read my post a few pages back, sarcastic as it may be, I explain why I don't engage with Jeremy's arguments and just sling insults at him.

Jeremy, here's the thing. You KNOW you're deliberately obnoxious. ... You KNOW we KNOW, that it's completely deliberate. ... So why are you here? What do you want?

... You Cunt Drinking Beverage

I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!
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08-05-2014, 12:38 AM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(08-05-2014 12:33 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  ... You Cunt Drinking Beverage

I second the motion.

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08-05-2014, 01:47 AM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
I read this forum every day but I don't post very often as I have a tendency to be rather....verbose as it were. Now while I've read through this thread in it's entirety I should like to avoid any unnecessary distractions, warranted as they may be, and get some clarification on a few questions I had regarding your views if I may Jeremy.

I'd hate to make you repeat yourself, and it's mostly for my own edification, but if you would be willing to answer them I'd appreciate that Jeremy.
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08-05-2014, 02:15 AM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 04:34 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I just find the usage of the word "should" to be inconsistent with the denial of moral values and duties.
The word "should" doesn't always have moral implications
If you don't want the rain to come in then you should close your window.
You should gracefully eject your USB drive rather than pulling it straight out.
When you swing your golf club you should keep your head still.

Tongue
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08-05-2014, 03:17 AM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(08-05-2014 02:15 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 04:34 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I just find the usage of the word "should" to be inconsistent with the denial of moral values and duties.
The word "should" doesn't always have moral implications
If you don't want the rain to come in then you should close your window.
You should gracefully eject your USB drive rather than pulling it straight out.
When you swing your golf club you should keep your head still.

Tongue

Additionally, if you, Jeremy, are familiar with international standards and frameworks (best / good practices) you will find 2 key words... should and shall.

These are prevalent in standards and missing from frameworks.

Ancient scriptures are, at best, obsolete frameworks (guidance) and only fanatics treat them as standards.

These are people of whom society is usually wary as they represent a risk to the sustainability (stability / continuity / security) of the status quo.

The deharmonising effect of these extremists often leads to changes (in policy or behaviour) and/or innovation.

Whether one considers that a good or a bad thing depends upon one's subjective objectives.

Big Grin

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08-05-2014, 08:38 AM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(07-05-2014 04:20 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 03:52 PM)Impulse Wrote:  For at least the majority here, I think the issue is not so much theists, but certain types of theists. Theists who are 1) willing to discuss without the arrogant tone, 2) present substantive arguments (substantive being something that has some thought behind it and isn't just uneducated parroting), and 3) show a sincere effort at intellectual honesty are generally treated politely. "Politely" doesn't exclude being confronted by their errors in logic though - it's how they're confronted that is different. Theists who don't fit the above three traits are generally not treated as politely (and are also the majority) because they really want to lecture, preach, or troll, and not discuss.

I am all for deconstructing arguments and calling that argument ridiculous if it is ridiculous. I just don't see the point in calling a person a cunt. It doesn't provide anything new to chew on, its just an empty insult. Some people add it at the end of an otherwise good post, like "your wrong for these reasons, and btw your cunt" which is not quite so bad. The worst is when people post just to say "hey, your a cunt". Why?

I would find it much more satisfying to pin them on their argument and show it to be false. Watching someone back track is great, and even if they don't admit it, you know your right and that is awesome. Calling someone a cunt makes that so much harder to do, because then half the conversation is "he's a cunt", and "no, I'm not a cunt" and all I want to do is nail the guy for being wrong.
I agree, but it also doesn't bother me all that much when it's directed at a post (or person who wrote it) that had no respectable content in the first place. However, I think "cunt" is fairly strong compared with, say, "idiot" or "moron", so it should only be used when the label fits. I think it does in this case.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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08-05-2014, 08:48 AM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
I think ancient scriptures are at best a legacy system one can potentially derive like-for-like specification from, even for the religious. When I first read the Bible as a teenager I was surprised not to find the kind of clear guidance I had been fed in Church groups, but instead various relatively unconnected narratives. The religious seem to work very hard to build anything substantial from this content. While some normative sections do exist they are largely ignored, and those instructions that are applied to daily life as a religious person are often not found only as compromise interpretations of competing ideas within the source material.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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