Is God a moral monster?
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06-05-2014, 09:41 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(06-05-2014 09:26 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  So you see Charis, there is no reason whatsoever to think this sex was not consensual.

There is every reason to believe it was not consensual, and this has been explained to you repeatedly.

Just fuck off, you are insane by reason of religion.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-05-2014, 10:03 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
Jeremy, please "properly interpret," or "put into context" the following verses for us...and when you've finished I've got some more...

Yahweh thought some infants and children deserved death:
“All those who are found will be stabbed, all those captured will fall by the sword, their babies dashed to pieces before their eyes, their houses plundered, their wives raped. Look, against them I am stirring up the Medes who care nothing for silver, who set no value by gold. Bows will annihilate the young men, they will have no pity for the fruit of the womb, or mercy in their eyes for children” (Isa. 13:15–18, NJB.)

“Ephraim is blasted, their root has dried out, they will bear no more fruit. And even if they do bear children I shall slaughter the darlings of their womb” (Hosea 9:16, NJB.)

“A blessing on anyone who seizes your babies and shatters them against rock” (Ps. 137:9, NJB.)

Even the unborn weren’t safe:

“Samaria will pay the penalty for having rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, their little children will be dashed to pieces and their pregnant women disemboweled” (Hosea 14:1, NJB.)

God ordered the killing of boys and women who weren’t virgins:

“Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him” (Num. 31:17, NJB.)
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06-05-2014, 10:08 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2014 10:17 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(06-05-2014 09:26 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(06-05-2014 08:37 PM)Charis Wrote:  ^^Excellent post. You just articulated everything i wanted to but couldn't, due to my shaking and the whooshing sound in my ears.

Waiting. Jeremy?

His whole argument stands or falls on whether or not the sex is consensual. And to be charitable, I can agree.

If it was unconsensual, it would be rape.

But what does the passage say? I already gave my commentary on it and Reltzik gives us no reason at all to think the sex is unconsensual, he just states that it is lol!!!

When reading this passage in light of the other passages where God condemns rape and ascribes for it the penalty of death, one has only a wild leap of the imagination to get him to the point where he can say this passage condones rape!

In fact the whole bit about her being stripped naked and hung from the rafter is pure fiction. Its not in the bible at all.

In fact, I cannot think of one reason why a woman chosen to be taken out of captivity and given essentially a fresh start with a new lease on life would not literally jump at the chance.

Reltzik would have you believe these would be women crying and wailing and kicking and screaming as the soldiers came to them with the news that they were no longer war captives.... : /

That they would be horrified at the prospect of being given new clothes in exchange for the filthy ones they were wearing, probably soiled from having been worn, a house to live in instead of a cell, the hope of marriage in exchange for their chains...

They would have been kicking and screaming no doubt, but not for the reasons Reltzik thinks. They would have been kicking and screaming to get the attention of the men whenever they could so they could display themselves in the hopes of being seen as beautiful, something that not a few women do today without their freedom at stake!!!!!


So you see Charis, there is no reason whatsoever to think this sex was not consensual.

Actually, I never advanced the position that ALL women forcibly taken as war captives (CAPTIVES, not people who voluntarily came over for a good lay... this passage is explicitly about CAPTIVES) wouldn't consent. I did suggest that SOME wouldn't. I'd guess that on balance MOST wouldn't, without an element of coercion... not if the guy was part of the army that is the reason they're captives and mourning their parents. Maybe you'd guess differently. Don't know WHY you'd guess differently, but you seem to be guessing differently.

But that's not the point. The point is that sex, absent any consideration of consent, is being condoned. If the situation never arose where a captive woman declined to consent (even leaving out any questions of coercion or duress), then it was still condoned if that situation ever did arise. Even if it would have to be marital rape, it would still be rape, and it was still being condoned. That was my point.

But if you don't follow that, let's break it down into the only four possible scenarios.

1: EVERY woman taken in this manner, by a follower of this law, from whenever it was authored until whenever it ceased to matter (maybe present day, maybe new covenant, whatever floats your boat), whose captor attempted to make her his wife in the manner described, either dissented, or agreed under duress (which is not consent), and yet they every last one of them were violated under the permission granted by this rule. Then they were all raped, as condoned by God. I personally don't think this is likely. Given a large number of captives, SOME of them might have genuinely fallen in love over a month. But I'm covering all possibilities.

2: Every last woman in this situation either consented without duress, or her dissent was honored. Personally, I don't think this is likely at all. But if it was? GOOD FOR THE MEN! ... kinda. Still the whole captive issue. If that actually were the case, no rape was happening... at least not among the women captives they wished to marry. Good. .... and yet.... if that situation ever WERE to have arisen... where the man had met the requirements, the woman had refused, and he'd forced her to marry and have sex against her will... then it was already precondoned, wasn't it? God condoned it, even if the men listening to God never took him up on the offer.

3: SOME women were raped, as in (1), but others were not, as in (2). In which case, God condoned the rapes. I think this is the most likely scenario.

4: NO woman was ever taken captive and married in this manner. Unlikely, I know, but I have to consider the trivial case. In which case, God still condoned it and the men never had the opportunity or desire to take him up on the offer, as described in (2).

And as for the passages forbidding rape? .... um, show me that? The passage I'm thinking of said that the rapist had to pay 30 shekels to the victim's father (who's dead) and then marry her (oh look, already done) regardless of whether she wants to marry or not, IIRC.

But hey, whether or not that's the passage you're citing? Two possibilities. THIS passage was authored before that one, or after it. If before, then there was a window of opportunity when rape was permitted under the Law. If after, then this passage must be seen as overriding it, much as the NT is seen as overriding the old. Or, third possibility, there are no inconsistencies between the two, meaning that this thing which is being permitted in explicitly-spelled-out-detail does not count as rape. (At least, not according to the Bible.)

Oh, and one last question.

Interpretation? INTERPRETATION? WTF?

Okay, look. You believe this crap is true. That there actually is a God and the Bible is roughly or wholly accurate.

In which case.... why are you fishing around for an interpretation you like?

Shouldn't you be fishing around for WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED instead? Or what the most likely scenario is, if you can't access the absolute truth? And if you don't like the conclusion, what does that matter? History can be quite ugly. That doesn't stop it from being what actually happened.

But okay, if interpretation is permissible and so on, and you're going to arbitrarily pick whichever interpretation makes you happiest, without trying to base it on any evidence that that interpretation is correct over the others.... then why the hell do you think you have grounds for picking on how WE'RE interpreting it?

So.... interpretation? WTF?
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06-05-2014, 10:19 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
Hmmm, an argument over the morality of an imaginary being. Landmark stuff.

How about a discussion on the people who follow the supposed teachings of this fictional character? Then you can really address the morality or lack thereof of actual people.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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06-05-2014, 10:24 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(06-05-2014 10:19 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Hmmm, an argument over the morality of an imaginary being. Landmark stuff.

Eh, I'm quite happy discussing the moral character of, say, Ned Stark or Joffree Baratheon. (Guess which one I think the Biblical God is more like?)
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06-05-2014, 10:25 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(06-05-2014 08:26 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(06-05-2014 08:24 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  So does the Westboro Baptist church. I'm pretty sure they'd kick your ass in a debate about how to interpret scripture. They're better christians than you are.

The members of the Westboro Baptist Church have been roundly denounced by the vast majority of churches not only in America, but throughout the world.

Rightly so.

They are good examples of what happens when ignorant, sinful, wicked, hateful, bigots use religion for evil.

Their judgment will be just.

Why wait for judgement day? I mean, God should stay in form by ordering and your group to slaughter all the men of the WBC, and save the women for yourselves to plunder. (And don't forget to burn down their church and homes, after you have looted them.)
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06-05-2014, 10:28 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(06-05-2014 10:25 PM)TheBear Wrote:  
(06-05-2014 08:26 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  The members of the Westboro Baptist Church have been roundly denounced by the vast majority of churches not only in America, but throughout the world.

Rightly so.

They are good examples of what happens when ignorant, sinful, wicked, hateful, bigots use religion for evil.

Their judgment will be just.

Why wait for judgement day? I mean, God should stay in form by ordering and your group to slaughter all the men of the WBC, and save the women for yourselves to plunder. (And don't forget to burn down their church and homes, after you have looted them.)

The sad part is, as hateful and bigoted as the WBC was, I never remember them being rape apologists like our boy Walker is. How fucked up is that?

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06-05-2014, 10:30 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(06-05-2014 07:34 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(06-05-2014 07:30 PM)Charis Wrote:  Laugh out load And I'm sure nooooobody who has posted thus far is under the impression that the Bible contains commands to rape people. Thumbsup

If they are then they can provide a passage and their interpretation for me to interact with. I will be happy to. Drinking Beverage

Here's a few other passages about rape you might be able to clear up for us while you're at it:

Rape and the Spoils of War - Judges 5:30
Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh - Judges 21:10-24
Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites - Numbers 31:7-18
More Murder Rape and Pillage - Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Laws of Rape - Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Death to the Rape Victim - Deuteronomy 22:23-24
Polygamy, Rape and Baby Killing - 2 Samuel 12:11-14
Sex Slaves - Exodus 21:7-11
God Assists Rape and Plunder - Zechariah 14:1-2

These passages are also quite common when referencing rape in the bible.

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06-05-2014, 10:31 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/religion/...ants-video

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06-05-2014, 10:46 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
Ain't it just bizarre that we....intelligent, informed, educated modern people... are discussing the deplorable ethics of our ingnorant, uninformed, uneducated ancestors... as if they knew something about ethics we don't?

Jeremy...take your tripe in your leather bound tomes and shove it where the sun don't shine. And that means stop promoting it...particularly to children. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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