Is God a moral monster?
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06-05-2014, 10:46 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(06-05-2014 10:28 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The sad part is, as hateful and bigoted as the WBC was, I never remember them being rape apologists like our boy Walker is. How fucked up is that?

Indeed.

It's amazing that no matter how fucked up their rationale is, they can always find reinforcement and justification for their twisted delusions in holy writings. This also applies to a lot of Muslims.
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06-05-2014, 11:05 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(06-05-2014 10:46 PM)TheBear Wrote:  
(06-05-2014 10:28 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The sad part is, as hateful and bigoted as the WBC was, I never remember them being rape apologists like our boy Walker is. How fucked up is that?

Indeed.

It's amazing that no matter how fucked up their rationale is, they can always find reinforcement and justification for their twisted delusions in holy writings. This also applies to a lot of Muslims.

Like those Boko Haram fuckers abducting, enslaving, selling, and raping schoolgirls in Nigeria.

The sad part is that Walker is only a few steps removed from these African warlords and he doesn't even realize it. They're using the exact same thought process to arrive at their justification, and there is nothing Walker can say against them other than that they are praying to the wrong god... Dodgy




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06-05-2014, 11:09 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(06-05-2014 10:19 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Hmmm, an argument over the morality of an imaginary being. Landmark stuff.

How about a discussion on the people who follow the supposed teachings of this fictional character? Then you can really address the morality or lack thereof of actual people.

I think I have addressed that in Walker's instance. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-05-2014, 11:13 PM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(06-05-2014 09:35 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(06-05-2014 09:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, the Bible shows god condoning rape and commanding the Israelites to kill every living thing, or every man and woman except the ones who have not known a man, and so on.

Your casuistry marks you as not only delusional, bet demented and morally cretinous.

You're on a roll and batting a thousand!!!

Morally cretinous is just too good! If I were there with you I would pat you on the back for that one.

And yet you have no actual, substantive reply. Drinking Beverage

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07-05-2014, 01:34 AM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(06-05-2014 07:11 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  The most frequently chosen passage offered to support these assertions is the passage from Deuteronomy chapter 21. It reads:

10 “When you go out to battle against your enemies, and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take them away captive, 11 and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself, 12 then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and [a]trim her nails. 13 She shall also [b]remove the clothes of her captivity and shall remain in your house, and mourn her father and mother a full month; and after that you may go in to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go [c]wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, you shall not [d]mistreat her, because you have humbled her.
At what point does the woman's opinion matter?
It says that the man gets to choose her. Her opinion matters not.
It says that the man can bring her to his house. Whether she wants to go there or not seems to be irrelevant.
It says that she shall shave her head. It seems she doesn't get a choice on this.
It says that he may go into her, but again her opinion on the matter appears to be irrelevant.
If he is not pleased with her (after the fuck/rape) then it seems he can choose to let her go. At no point does it say that she can choose to go if she wishes. Seems her wishes are irrelevant.

Does Christianity preach that a woman's wants and wishes are irrelevant?
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07-05-2014, 01:55 AM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(06-05-2014 07:11 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  "God commanded rape."

"There is no reasoning with a rape apologist."

"God condones rape."

These are all remarks coming from people here and have been directed towards me so I will in this thread be addressing them.

Despite the fact that the ones making these statements have yet to provide a grounds for making them that would be objective and not a mere statement of opinion, I will answer them.

The most frequently chosen passage offered to support these assertions is the passage from Deuteronomy chapter 21. It reads:

10 “When you go out to battle against your enemies, and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take them away captive, 11 and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself, 12 then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and [a]trim her nails. 13 She shall also [b]remove the clothes of her captivity and shall remain in your house, and mourn her father and mother a full month; and after that you may go in to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go [c]wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, you shall not [d]mistreat her, because you have humbled her.

This passage gives instructions for how a woman is to be treated who has been chosen to be taken out of captivity by an Israelite and to be brought into the sacred bounds of marriage which at this time in history, was the most desirable thing that a woman could hope for. It afforded her a certain social status far above the status that she would have had as a captive, definite economic security, and the chance to have children at a time in history where women who had children were seen as being blessed, much like women today are still viewed.

God knowing the evil in men's hearts knew that certain laws would need to be put in place to keep men from taking advantage of these women and to protect them. So what does God do?

He gives us this passage.

Notice clearly in verse eleven, it is addressed to the man who intends to make the woman his WIFE. Not some sex slave, but his WIFE. In this culture, when a man decided to marry a woman he took on the responsibility of fully providing for and caring for the woman and if he failed to do so he would be subject to the Law.

He is commanded to bring the woman into his house. This means he is not allowed to build a separate little "whore house" out back where he keeps her as some sort of sex toy. He is to take her into his house where she is to shave her head and trim her nails. This was so that the woman might appear as unattractive as physically possible. She is to remove the clothes she was wearing when she was captured. Why? It was common for beautiful women in these particular accursed nations to wear ornate and costly garments that were overtly enticing and attractive in times of war to seduce their foes. It is not hard to imagine this at all for if women dress as they do today and their life does not depend on it, then think of what they were capable of when their city was being surrounded by an army!Drooling

All of the above was done to deter the man from marrying the woman just because she was hot. Tongue

God knew these men and knew their propensity for being carried away with lust by the appearance of a beautiful woman. So in order to make sure this marriage and consummation was not something based on mere lust and on a whim, He gave instructions that would make the man have to see the woman day in and day out for a full month in an unattractive state while she was also allowed to mourn for the loss she had experienced.

I imagine many a man during this month changed their mind about the whole thing and never even went through with it. Only those determined to go through with it did.

Only after a month of this, and only after the man had determined to make the woman his wife would it be allowed for him to have sexual intercourse with her and even then the passage is clear. It says he MAY do this, not that he MUST. There is no command here to have sex with the woman at all.

God after this, knowing the evil in men's hearts, and in order to give further protection to the woman says that the woman is NOT TO BE SOLD for money or MISTREATED if the man no longer want her to be his wife, but rather, must be free to go wherever she wishes!!!!

Now bear in mind, this is not just any woman. These women were women who had been taken alive as captives from some of the most wicked, most vile, most insidious societies that have ever existed. These societies and cultures made the Nazis look like the Little House on the Prairie family. Gasp

They were known for child sacrifice, debaucherous sexual rituals and barbaric treatment of men women and children of neighboring cultures. These women in question more than likely had participated either directly or indirectly in child sacrifice and temple prostitution to include all manner of filthiness like beastiality etc. etc.

So these were not some innocent little women that spent their days frolicking in the fields picking pansies. Many of them were hardened, barbaric, seductive and devastatingly wicked women that would make Aileen Wuornos look like Mary Poppins.

But God being the God He is, despite these women being who they were, put restrictions on his own people to make sure they were respected and protected!!!!!

Incredible. Today such women would be labeled by many as incorrigible and worthy of no respect whatsoever.

But God is not like man. He is merciful and loving and set up rules and laws so that even the lowest of the low would be protected from wanton abuse.

So you can see when looking at this passage, far from it saying what you all claim it says, it actually serves only to prove my point. That God is compassionate and has concern for people, especially women at a time in history when women were seen as little more than property by the majority of the cultures in existence.

Jeremy, you're a cunt Drinking Beverage

I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!
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07-05-2014, 03:56 AM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2014 05:40 AM by ShirubaDangan.)
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(06-05-2014 07:11 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  "God commanded rape."

"There is no reasoning with a rape apologist."

"God condones rape."

These are all remarks coming from people here and have been directed towards me so I will in this thread be addressing them.

Despite the fact that the ones making these statements have yet to provide a grounds for making them that would be objective and not a mere statement of opinion, I will answer them.

The most frequently chosen passage offered to support these assertions is the passage from Deuteronomy chapter 21. It reads:

10 “When you go out to battle against your enemies, and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take them away captive, 11 and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself, 12 then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and [a]trim her nails. 13 She shall also [b]remove the clothes of her captivity and shall remain in your house, and mourn her father and mother a full month; and after that you may go in to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go [c]wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, you shall not [d]mistreat her, because you have humbled her.

This passage gives instructions for how a woman is to be treated who has been chosen to be taken out of captivity by an Israelite and to be brought into the sacred bounds of marriage which at this time in history, was the most desirable thing that a woman could hope for. It afforded her a certain social status far above the status that she would have had as a captive, definite economic security, and the chance to have children at a time in history where women who had children were seen as being blessed, much like women today are still viewed.

The fact we even are having this discussion reveals that God doesn't always state his ideas well and with what we have of what he does, allows and commands. Rape is just one of many things God does seem to support.

Now I don't want to state my opinion instead I will offer more passages and see what you think of them. You can choose to ignore it like many Christians but if you do the you do not care about this discussion at all and I want to see how you will try to explain it.

Numbers 31:7-18
New Living Translation (NLT)
7 They attacked Midian as the Lord had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. 8 All five of the Midianite kings—Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba—died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.

9 Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. 11 After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, 12 they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho. 13 Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 But Moses was furious with all the generals and captains[a] who had returned from the battle.

15 “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. 16 “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the Lord at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the Lord’s people. 17 So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. 18 Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14
New International Version (NIV)
10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.

Zechariah 14:1-2
King James Version (KJV)
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Now despite the genocide and horrific atrocities God allowed which I also have huge issues with because an all knowing God would have likely found some way to convince them and an all loving God would have assured to do so in a way that didn't have to cause violence, loss and tragedy.

Makes sense God would do this.

Also, glad you bind your God to the history of the time. Women just wanted to be baby cannons and I disagree with this point while I do believe some women would I don't believe all women wanted to be and especially in a way where they potentially lost brothers, fathers and mothers to these people who now want to have sex with them. Your pathetic attempt to make it seem better is insanely flawed and something I cannot accept. Even the idea of accepting that is disgusting to me and if you still believe to rationalize it that way its a saddening way to view it.

Also, let us see what the advantages of being a married women were. You can obviously be murdered if another tribe invaded and killed your husband and other males just to watch your son be executed because he was simply male and watch as your daughters are chosen not because their virgins but because they were young and thought virgins fairly sure they didn't check and then be killed because they rather have sex with the younger ones and don't need you. While getting married did offer effects why couldn't it have been a marriage of love? Why did it have to go through a marriage based on the ugly acts committed through war to accomplish this? Thought God valued marriage but it seems to be that it only benefits men who simply get to choose and have sex with who they want and have them with them because they have the power. Totally sounds like an equal religion and fair to both sexes except if women aren't virgins they were useless to God.

Why couldn't God find a way to be more peaceful and accepting of others? Why couldn't he change their minds? Why couldn't God do any of this?

Or was religion not much more then something created by man.

(06-05-2014 07:11 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  God knowing the evil in men's hearts knew that certain laws would need to be put in place to keep men from taking advantage of these women and to protect them. So what does God do?

He gives us this passage.

Notice clearly in verse eleven, it is addressed to the man who intends to make the woman his WIFE. Not some sex slave, but his WIFE. In this culture, when a man decided to marry a woman he took on the responsibility of fully providing for and caring for the woman and if he failed to do so he would be subject to the Law.

He is commanded to bring the woman into his house. This means he is not allowed to build a separate little "whore house" out back where he keeps her as some sort of sex toy. He is to take her into his house where she is to shave her head and trim her nails. This was so that the woman might appear as unattractive as physically possible. She is to remove the clothes she was wearing when she was captured. Why? It was common for beautiful women in these particular accursed nations to wear ornate and costly garments that were overtly enticing and attractive in times of war to seduce their foes. It is not hard to imagine this at all for if women dress as they do today and their life does not depend on it, then think of what they were capable of when their city was being surrounded by an army!Drooling

All of the above was done to deter the man from marrying the woman just because she was hot. Tongue

What does God do? He lets his followers brutally murder other human beings and I don't care if you say its in self defense or those people were evil because they are obviously taking women from these places and that is fine. He also just views women as sexual objects because instead of giving them say or something else but instead they are just baby makers which is just so disappointing. He instead gives these girls to their captives and supports it. That is what God does and I already explained how God allowed a numerous amount of stupidity to exist in the world.

Your explanation of the passage is to try and clean it up. Trying to make it look all nice and happy regardless of the death that happened before and the ignorance of all the good God could have potentially have made like preventing the war and converting these people but nope raping their young women and killing everyone else will suffice.

I like how now the men have to deal with some law besides the war they just raged. I still don't think making them a wife somehow justifies the situation though. Being bound to someone who wanted you probably likely due to your looks and the fact your likely young is quite sad still. I bring up marriage again because didn't God value this so highly like many Christians do and doesn't this devalue it ridiculously since it is derived from such bad circumstances?

So they are from cursed nations? Why not just leave them be then? Why let them among you? You obviously destroyed the rest of their identity from their cities to their animals and even to the humans but why not the women? Because they can have sex with them? That is just again foul. The humans were being used just like animals which seems to offend Christians again but seems fine when their holy book does such things. I don't care what women wear I think it should be their choice and I don't think it would make them look honestly less attractive. I am very sure the men chose the women because they were attractive, young and had no real choice compared to the men. Be a slave or forced to marry a guy aren't very attractive options.

I like how you acknowledge the army though. Let us imagine the scenario that must have happened. The army enters the city and like numerous bible passages begins to utterly destroy the homes of these people. As this happens they also begin to slaughter all the males and older looking women in the cities as they ravage their way through. They take the women they believe are virgins which means they take the young ones because they honestly didn't check them. This sounds definitely like an all loving scenario. Even if these people were vile do you believe young boys should be killed just for being male? Let me ask you this. After World War 2 ended Russia actually committed tons of atrocities on the German people. Raping women and beating others. Was this right? If you say know then why does God make it right? I mean sometimes God waited until he liked all the humans up and then slaughtered them:

1 Samuel 15:3
King James Version (KJV)
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

God is love.

(06-05-2014 07:11 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  God knew these men and knew their propensity for being carried away with lust by the appearance of a beautiful woman. So in order to make sure this marriage and consummation was not something based on mere lust and on a whim, He gave instructions that would make the man have to see the woman day in and day out for a full month in an unattractive state while she was also allowed to mourn for the loss she had experienced.

I imagine many a man during this month changed their mind about the whole thing and never even went through with it. Only those determined to go through with it did.

Only after a month of this, and only after the man had determined to make the woman his wife would it be allowed for him to have sexual intercourse with her and even then the passage is clear. It says he MAY do this, not that he MUST. There is no command here to have sex with the woman at all.

God after this, knowing the evil in men's hearts, and in order to give further protection to the woman says that the woman is NOT TO BE SOLD for money or MISTREATED if the man no longer want her to be his wife, but rather, must be free to go wherever she wishes!!!!

So God tortured the woman each day to see her families murderer each day as she was given a month to get accommodated with living with those who had literally taken all she had known away from her.

God is so kind.

I like how you say this is an unattractive state. Like all the things that man must have done and all the things that woman had to go through and you try to equal her loss and sadness to his apparent 'suffering' to deal with her weeping and supposed lack of beauty.

Well, a lot of men seemed to have gone through with it since some passages state that they completely ran out of women from other places like this passage here:

Judges 21:10-24
New International Version (NIV)
10 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. 11 “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin.” 12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.

13 Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. 14 So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them.

15 The people grieved for Benjamin, because the Lord had made a gap in the tribes of Israel. 16 And the elders of the assembly said, “With the women of Benjamin destroyed, how shall we provide wives for the men who are left? 17 The Benjamite survivors must have heirs,” they said, “so that a tribe of Israel will not be wiped out. 18 We can’t give them our daughters as wives, since we Israelites have taken this oath: ‘Cursed be anyone who gives a wife to a Benjamite.’ 19 But look, there is the annual festival of the Lord in Shiloh, which lies north of Bethel, east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and south of Lebonah.”

20 So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, “Go and hide in the vineyards 21 and watch. When the young women of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, rush from the vineyards and each of you seize one of them to be your wife. Then return to the land of Benjamin. 22 When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, ‘Do us the favor of helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war. You will not be guilty of breaking your oath because you did not give your daughters to them.’”

23 So that is what the Benjamites did. While the young women were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them.

24 At that time the Israelites left that place and went home to their tribes and clans, each to his own inheritance.

God, also pro kidnapping.

I am very certain the males went through with it and did what they pleased. Not your point with that the men didn't have to have sex with them is the most deeply saddening. You are either remarkably ignorant or blinded by your faith that you do not know how bad this world could get. They likely did have sex with them there is no other reason for them to clearly state virgin women and to bring them into their fray without getting something in return which was definitely sex. How can I say such things? Well humans are an interesting bunch and things like this are actually still happening today.





I know, I know. That is Islam! Of course it isn't right! It isn't my religion! Well their religion is very similar to yours and also they are doing a remarkably similar thing to what your religion did and they also have codes to respect women and to not look at them lustfully do you see them adhering to those rules or do you see them only listening to the ones where they can capture and kidnap women and have them as theirs.

Not sell women? I don't think you even know your own religious book now.

Exodus 21:7-11
New International Version (NIV)
7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself,[a] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

Selling humans even your daughter is alright in the Bible.

Exodus 21:20-21
King James Version (KJV)
20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

Also, beating a human as long as they don't die is also okay.

I am glad though that the women can at least walk around freely and that not being consolidated or at least met by God to explain these actions himself as she basically has to live there with not much of a choice. Again God is for free will and again he does not care for it.

(06-05-2014 07:11 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Now bear in mind, this is not just any woman. These women were women who had been taken alive as captives from some of the most wicked, most vile, most insidious societies that have ever existed. These societies and cultures made the Nazis look like the Little House on the Prairie family. Gasp

They were known for child sacrifice, debaucherous sexual rituals and barbaric treatment of men women and children of neighboring cultures. These women in question more than likely had participated either directly or indirectly in child sacrifice and temple prostitution to include all manner of filthiness like beastiality etc. etc.

So these were not some innocent little women that spent their days frolicking in the fields picking pansies. Many of them were hardened, barbaric, seductive and devastatingly wicked women that would make Aileen Wuornos look like Mary Poppins.

But God being the God He is, despite these women being who they were, put restrictions on his own people to make sure they were respected and protected!!!!!

Incredible. Today such women would be labeled by many as incorrigible and worthy of no respect whatsoever.

But God is not like man. He is merciful and loving and set up rules and laws so that even the lowest of the low would be protected from wanton abuse.

So you can see when looking at this passage, far from it saying what you all claim it says, it actually serves only to prove my point. That God is compassionate and has concern for people, especially women at a time in history when women were seen as little more than property by the majority of the cultures in existence.

Yes they were taken from the most wicked and vile places on the planet which is why they have virgin women still haven't killed one another yet. It was so bad that they were killed brutally by some other tribe that had better equipment or more numbers and had their young boys murdered and the old and fathers and mothers who obviously didn't take care of their children killed as well. With animals and babies being no different.

That is how vile that place was that some perfectly good people came and murdered them all.

Now you state that you are against child sacrifice. I agree that human sacrifice is wrong but didn't God sacrifice Jesus(Which is himself)? Why would he do such a thing if human sacrifice is bad? To forgive people? Why wouldn't he have just forgave and instead of using something that vile? I understand there are some sacrifices that I believe are heroic like the firefighters who gave their lives for saving people during the 9/11 attacks but they did so knowing they would lose their life and Jesus being all knowing would not have anything similar since death was simply a coma for him until he simple went to heaven while the entire time he was dead being fully aware and obsercant the entire time. That sacrifice meant nothing so why even allow it?

Sexual activities? Didn't the followers of your God also commit to stuff like that as well since they kidnapped and raped women? Barbaric treatment of men and women? Your religious followers completely murdered them and murdered a specific sex for not being 'virgins'. Bestiality exists in many places and places which are Christian like Scotland or Columbia for example. You may claim that they aren't christian and use excuses but they are heavily Christian and this does not seem to stifle it. The bible also supports sex slavery which I wonder what is worse compared to temple prostitution. You can look at bible quotes above about sex with slaves and I will get more but its getting traumatically late and I can go on it more as you wish. I want to finish this reply though.

As for these women not being innocent I wonder why they were virgins since they were obviously so bad and into doing supposedly bad things. I like how you used Barbaric. As if the genocide of these people isn't barbaric. They actually didn't have much rights during these times and they weren't crazy amazon women who ripped males in half and needed to be tamed or something. Any woman could seduce and them being devastatingly wicked and hardened is really interesting since they are given a month to grieve for their family. Thought they were hardened so they wouldn't care or wicked and would actually enjoy it. It was obvious with this grieving period that they were not. You just want to paint them as you'd like to push your belief. Now I actually enjoy history and I love studying humanity and during this time while there were tons of backwards beliefs especially compared to these days there wasn't much crazed people. There were child sacrifices and idiotic things but then you ignore such things like the binding of Isaac even though he does not go through killing the boy the act and mental distress that must of caused is twisted. God could have also been at the aid of these children being sacrificed for no reason but instead of converting or teaching these people they were wrong he obliterates them and becomes a monster worse than any of these apparently scary humans.

I would also say these women weren't necessarily respected or treated well. If we followed the Bible literally on that point we would likely be placed in jail.

Deuteronomy 25:11-12
New International Version (NIV)
11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

If you are in the middle of a fight and a woman grabs your Johnson you are totally allowed within the Bible to cut off her hand. If you don't believe in this or ignore this then you don't care about even your own Bible.

In todays state they would still be respected equally as human beings and don't you find it funny today that you wouldn't have to kidnap ones of these women and rape them to control them? That we can live and let live and that is much more effective of a way of life then the total sum of the Bible? They were not respected they may have been protected but respected, no. It took years for women to achieve a closer equality with men then they ever have been and that erupted within the last one hundred years while the entirety of the Bible's history on its planet hasn't provided things which you say it has.

God is totally not like man he is brutal and vicious. He convinces people that rape and genocide is fine. He convinces people that he is merciful as he wages war and kills the very people he created. He apparently created laws which have largely been replaced with better laws that humans have created.

God would be declared evil if he wasn't God.

Your points are largely flawed and convinced no one with any rational thinking of anything. Your history on humans is saddening and I encourage you strongly to look more into us. Your arguments are very weak with only opinions filling the gaps instead of evidence to back them up. Women were still seen as property and it didn't even change much with Christianity there. It had to be nearly two thousand years for some form of equality to happen. Why couldn't God have done that during the time he actually showed himself to people before the video camera was made? If we are going to vote which religion was correct based on rights for women I think the Greeks easily have that with records having women owning land which was extremely valuable in ancient Greece.

My final thing I wish to talk about is how you seem to continue to talk of God being good and compassionate. I want to ask why? Why do you need to tell me how God is compassionate instead of show me? Why does the Bible have such sick things if God were these things? Why has what man accomplished within modern medicine trumped anything God has provided within his book? And finally, why would God do all these flawed things unless he doesn't exist at all?

I am sorry if I am blunt but I do not take your position lightly. I am sure others on this forum have challenged you and have given amazing points and probably have addressed everything I stated. I just want to place my two cents in and I do want to hear your answers. If you cannot answer I truly hope you continue to look into things if you do not then you do not care for the truth and you will just be remembered in history as one of the people that didn't care for the truth.

I want to be a person who does care about the truth. I don't know everything obviously and I hope people continue to teach me new things.

What I have learned from God is that he can be whatever his followers want him to be and I think that is not good for anyone especially if they justify the most horrific acts with one simple word. God.

I cannot accept that.

(I will edit more once I get a computer like putting the names and titles of the passages in bold to be easier to find and changing things. You guys make me sad whenever there is an interesting discussion I am always without a computer and have to take ages to reply. Should really consider buying a tablet after this.)

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

It has been a long time. How have you been?
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[+] 6 users Like ShirubaDangan's post
07-05-2014, 08:03 AM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
I read this thread and want to vomit now.

You think being married to a man who murdered your family excuses this? Makes it not rape? You assume the woman had any say in this marriage. This is so highly unlikely that it is sickening. She was a captive to a bunch of murderers. This is coercion. And let's not forget that the idea of a woman having a say in who she marries is a VERY recent phenomena. Like a couple hundred years or less. Before that her voice was largely ignored if her family wanted the marriage. And the issue of spousal rape is more recent than that, only being criminalized within the past 50-100 years. Some places still don't prosecute it.

A woman who is a slave and becomes married to avoid perpetual servitude is not necessarily willing or happy to give her body. And your passage clearly states that a man owns his wife's body. Who cares if she's crying and screaming, she is his, so consent is given when she married him. That is, by the way, the legal defense of spousal rape used in this country within the 20th century.

I went to the university library and looked into the encyclopedia of religion and ethics. It's quite clear on this. A woman who is married is her husbands property. She is to submit to him. There was NO condemnation or consideration given to her will or her consent. She is property.
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[+] 4 users Like natachan's post
07-05-2014, 08:13 AM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(06-05-2014 07:11 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Despite the fact that the ones making these statements have yet to provide a grounds for making them that would be objective and not a mere statement of opinion, I will answer them.
You've GOT to be kidding me. There were ample grounds from several people in the other thread that are all well founded. You just didn't like what you heard there because it doesn't agree with your point of view. Too much cognitive dissonance isn't a sign that you should start a whole new thread in hopes of getting different results - it's a sign that you should re-examine your position with an open mind.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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[+] 1 user Likes Impulse's post
07-05-2014, 08:26 AM
RE: Is God a moral monster?
(06-05-2014 07:39 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(06-05-2014 07:37 PM)cjlr Wrote:  So that's "condone" pretty explicitly spelled out.


I dunno, something about a timeless and objective lawgiver would lead me to expect commands which satisfied those requirements. Do you know what objective means? It means not contingent on time and place.

Whataboutism - especially made up whataboutism, seeing how contemporaneous e.g. Egyptians, Persians, Celts, treated women - is a pretty special little bit of cognitively dissonant post-hoc justification.

Yeah. "It's not wrong if she deserved it". Gee, what a fascinating new take on things. Shine on, you repulsive diamond.

God condones a man marrying a woman if a man decides to marry her. Yes He does condone this.
Even without sex, this is already immoral. You didn't say one single thing about what the woman wants. Any sex just makes this wrong even worse. Woman are not property!

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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