Is God the head of the Captain Coward club?
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15-03-2013, 01:40 PM
RE: Is God the head of the Captain Coward club?
(15-03-2013 01:34 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(15-03-2013 01:14 PM)darthbreezy Wrote:  Yes, I agree. Neither have empathy, but at least one can feign it.

I'm sorry, I meant to imply that sociopaths are indeed capable of empathy, not just feigning it. This is a key differentiating ingredient. It is also the reason why sociopaths are not as violent as psychopaths. It' also the key to them being much better manipulators of people and thus, more financially successful. The sociopath experiences empathy but rather than convey real sympathy to the victim, he chooses to leverage that feeling for his own benefit.

Are you familiar with the Macdonald triad of sociopathy, by chance?

Keep your rosaries out of my ovaries, and your theology out of my biology.
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15-03-2013, 02:10 PM
RE: Is God the head of the Captain Coward club?
(15-03-2013 01:40 PM)darthbreezy Wrote:  
(15-03-2013 01:34 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  I'm sorry, I meant to imply that sociopaths are indeed capable of empathy, not just feigning it. This is a key differentiating ingredient. It is also the reason why sociopaths are not as violent as psychopaths. It' also the key to them being much better manipulators of people and thus, more financially successful. The sociopath experiences empathy but rather than convey real sympathy to the victim, he chooses to leverage that feeling for his own benefit.

Are you familiar with the Macdonald triad of sociopathy, by chance?
No I'm not but I will be soon. Big Grin

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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15-03-2013, 02:17 PM
RE: Is God the head of the Captain Coward club?
(15-03-2013 02:10 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(15-03-2013 01:40 PM)darthbreezy Wrote:  Are you familiar with the Macdonald triad of sociopathy, by chance?
No I'm not but I will be soon. Big Grin
From the Wikipedia entry:

"Further studies have suggested that these behaviors are often the
product of parental neglect, cruelty or trauma, and that such events in a
person's childhood can result in "homicidal proneness"."


I concur, as do a lot of professionals in the field. Although, I would argue that the word often should be removed from that statement. There is simply no credible evidence that genetics alone can create a sociopath or a psychopath. Even the affects of epigenetics are strongly influenced by early environment.

And yeah, I've heard of that triad but not under than moniker.[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macdonald_triad#cite_note-5][/url]

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15-03-2013, 02:26 PM
RE: Is God the head of the Captain Coward club?
(15-03-2013 02:10 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(15-03-2013 01:40 PM)darthbreezy Wrote:  Are you familiar with the Macdonald triad of sociopathy, by chance?
No I'm not but I will be soon. Big Grin


Education for the win; I respect the ability to say, "Hey, I'm not familiar with something, let me go look it up" very much. Smile Also, you might be familiar with the concepts if you've watched a lot of crime dramas, like Criminal Minds or Law & Order. I get that a lot when I'm geeking out about psych and explaining the triad. People ususally go, "OH YEAH! I've heard that!" It's been almost five years since my intro course, so I don't know if it was discussed there, but it was at least glossed over in each of my subsequent courses, especially Abnormal and Personality Theories, and it's in at least one episode of a crime drama per season (unless it's Criminal Minds, then it's used quite a bit).

Keep your rosaries out of my ovaries, and your theology out of my biology.
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15-03-2013, 02:34 PM
RE: Is God the head of the Captain Coward club?
(15-03-2013 02:17 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(15-03-2013 02:10 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  No I'm not but I will be soon. Big Grin

From the Wikipedia entry:



"Further studies have suggested that these behaviors are often the

product of parental neglect, cruelty or trauma, and that such events in a

person's childhood can result in "homicidal proneness"."





I concur, as do a lot of professionals in the field. Although, I would argue that the word often should be removed from that statement. There is simply no credible evidence that genetics alone can create a sociopath or a psychopath. Even the affects of epigenetics are strongly influenced by early environment.



And yeah, I've heard of that triad but not under than moniker.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macdonald_t...ite_note-5

I agree. I've heard claims that having an extra Y chromosome predisposes one to become a criminal. That's pseudoscience used by people who have committed crimes and do not want to take responsibility. I have yet to see credible scientists with legit scientific experiments prove, or even argue, it. Criminal behavior is absolutely multi-factored. Mental illness can be largely genetic, and usually is, but criminal behavior alone is not solely a genetic byproduct.

Keep your rosaries out of my ovaries, and your theology out of my biology.
"If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people." --Dr. House
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15-03-2013, 03:14 PM
RE: Is God the head of the Captain Coward club?
(15-03-2013 08:23 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Christians think that God loves us because he gave his son for us (John 3:16). However, was it really a sacrifice? It's not as if Jesus went to Hell in our place, or even surrendered his life in trade for other lives. His "death" was just a 3-day vacation.
IMO God "died" on the cross, that is, the Father and Son experienced a true rending, a true death, a true separation. Also, the beatings that men gave Him were but a foretaste of the Father's wrath poured upon the cross while the sky was darkened so that men could not see the suffering... this idea of a "light thing for God" is perhaps best answered this way--stick your feet in a lit fireplace for a few hours and then tell us you've suffered "easy" like Christ--one NT writer reminds his readers they have not yet suffered so greatly they would sweat blood in anticipation...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematidrosis

As a former Christian, I remember being taught that Jesus' death was really harsh. But he was crucified, and hardly the first one to ever undergo such treatment. Crucifixion was common... it was the typical death penalty. You even cited a Wikipedia entry on one of his problems, an entry which was built by study of people who underwent the same problem of sweating blood -- even that wasn't unique. I made no claim (nor am I currently claiming) that Jesus "suffered easy", but let's not exaggerate it, either.

So now let's look at it objectively. I'm sure you wouldn't undergo such suffering... but would you do it for someone you loved? How about for several million people? Even heartless people would do that. And let's assume that death isn't a mystery for you -- you already know where you'll be and what you'll do while dead -- so there's not exactly a fear of death for you. Additionally, it only last 3 days and then you get to rule in Heaven. And you get a legacy for thousands of years on Earth. And you are worshiped for eternity. In return for a day's suffering and a very short death.

Seriously, give up the pity party. Jesus' death was not a great sacrifice. Given those conditions nearly anyone would endure it.

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15-03-2013, 08:14 PM
RE: Is God the head of the Captain Coward club?
(15-03-2013 02:34 PM)darthbreezy Wrote:  I agree. I've heard claims that having an extra Y chromosome predisposes one to become a criminal. That's pseudoscience used by people who have committed crimes and do not want to take responsibility. I have yet to see credible scientists with legit scientific experiments prove, or even argue, it. Criminal behavior is absolutely multi-factored. Mental illness can be largely genetic, and usually is, but criminal behavior alone is not solely a genetic byproduct.
Well, I don't watch television and haven't for the last ten or more years but I am a voracious consumer of non fiction, philosophy and research. For the past year I've been heavily focused on psychology, partly so I could process some of my childhood, partly because 99% of what is considered common knowledge is illogical and lastly, because the subject fascinates me. In any event, I disagree strongly that genetics has anything at all to do with mental illness, with the obvious caveats of biological malformations and physical brain injuries. Criminal behavior is merely a by-product of psychological problems, just as is addiction. I also don't like the term "mental illness". After all, we don't say that a Chinese woman who had her feet bound as a child has "pedial illness"... because it isn't an illness, it's an injury that was inflicted on her as a child.. Likewise, psychological problems are the result of environmental injuries to the developing brain and thus, are not illnesses.

You mentioned that genetics is used as a scapegoat for criminal behavior. I posit that it's used as a scapegoat for a lot of behavioral problems and, it's used as an excuse not to blame the people who most likely caused it.... the parents. That includes, but is not limited to ADHD, addiction, procrastination, anxiety disorder, etc. You also pointed out that it's nice that I admitted I hadn't seen heard of the MacDonald triad. Thanks. I also admitted, when I learned of it, that I had made a good many mistakes when raising my son. I also went to him, explained those things and offered my sincerest apologies for them. And, I went to my parents and explained the things they had done to me. Fortunately, my parents are rational enough that they understood, agreed (if not reluctantly on a few points) and apologized. Had they not, they wouldn't be in my life today.

That sort of honesty with others is the biggest road block humanity has to overcome before we even begin to become peaceful. It's also one of the biggest roadblocks to scientific progress, particularly in the soft sciences. After all, if archaeologists and historians have unprocessed childhood experiences, there is no way they can ever look at historical societies from a proper psychological perspective and that's precisely the reason why we can watch a BBC documentary on ancient societies and see the host talk about infanticide as if it were merely a normal, acceptable practice. There is one account of pedophilia wherein the researcher actually said that there is nothing at all wrong with adults having sex with children, so long as the practice wasn't proscribed in the society. WTF? There god damn sure is something wrong with pedophilia, I don't care when it happened or who approved of it. And then there's another alleged "expert" from years ago who said that pederasty was perfectly harmless, so long as the man who raped the boys was satisfied. Again... WTF?

Sorry for the ramble tangent but yeah, we need to get some perspective when dealing with both historical accounts and with current psychological problems. Smile

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15-03-2013, 10:12 PM
RE: Is God the head of the Captain Coward club?
(15-03-2013 08:14 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(15-03-2013 02:34 PM)darthbreezy Wrote:  I agree. I've heard claims that having an extra Y chromosome predisposes one to become a criminal. That's pseudoscience used by people who have committed crimes and do not want to take responsibility. I have yet to see credible scientists with legit scientific experiments prove, or even argue, it. Criminal behavior is absolutely multi-factored. Mental illness can be largely genetic, and usually is, but criminal behavior alone is not solely a genetic byproduct.
Well, I don't watch television and haven't for the last ten or more years but I am a voracious consumer of non fiction, philosophy and research. For the past year I've been heavily focused on psychology, partly so I could process some of my childhood, partly because 99% of what is considered common knowledge is illogical and lastly, because the subject fascinates me. In any event, I disagree strongly that genetics has anything at all to do with mental illness, with the obvious caveats of biological malformations and physical brain injuries. Criminal behavior is merely a by-product of psychological problems, just as is addiction. I also don't like the term "mental illness". After all, we don't say that a Chinese woman who had her feet bound as a child has "pedial illness"... because it isn't an illness, it's an injury that was inflicted on her as a child.. Likewise, psychological problems are the result of environmental injuries to the developing brain and thus, are not illnesses.

You mentioned that genetics is used as a scapegoat for criminal behavior. I posit that it's used as a scapegoat for a lot of behavioral problems and, it's used as an excuse not to blame the people who most likely caused it.... the parents. That includes, but is not limited to ADHD, addiction, procrastination, anxiety disorder, etc. You also pointed out that it's nice that I admitted I hadn't seen heard of the MacDonald triad. Thanks. I also admitted, when I learned of it, that I had made a good many mistakes when raising my son. I also went to him, explained those things and offered my sincerest apologies for them. And, I went to my parents and explained the things they had done to me. Fortunately, my parents are rational enough that they understood, agreed (if not reluctantly on a few points) and apologized. Had they not, they wouldn't be in my life today.

That sort of honesty with others is the biggest road block humanity has to overcome before we even begin to become peaceful. It's also one of the biggest roadblocks to scientific progress, particularly in the soft sciences. After all, if archaeologists and historians have unprocessed childhood experiences, there is no way they can ever look at historical societies from a proper psychological perspective and that's precisely the reason why we can watch a BBC documentary on ancient societies and see the host talk about infanticide as if it were merely a normal, acceptable practice. There is one account of pedophilia wherein the researcher actually said that there is nothing at all wrong with adults having sex with children, so long as the practice wasn't proscribed in the society. WTF? There god damn sure is something wrong with pedophilia, I don't care when it happened or who approved of it. And then there's another alleged "expert" from years ago who said that pederasty was perfectly harmless, so long as the man who raped the boys was satisfied. Again... WTF?

Sorry for the ramble tangent but yeah, we need to get some perspective when dealing with both historical accounts and with current psychological problems. Smile


Wow, what a great reply! I definitely agree that it's overhyped to apply as a scapegoat for problems that have come about from other people. I do not have a television and only watch one show on my computer when it comes on once a week, so I apologize if it came off as my information coming from a fictional police procedural. If anything my fascination with the show comes from my already existing interest in psychology, law, crime, etc. In any case, I agree that it can be used as a scapegoat for problems outside of criminal behaviors. In regards to the pedophilia, there's a thread somewhere around here about legalizing pedophilia that got pretty heated (of course). Someone said that 'just because society thinks something's wrong, doesn't mean that's a basis for creating laws against the behavior.' I couldn't believe it! All because 40-year-old men in some European country could marry 14-year-old girls, so why can't we in the States? I didn't mean to take this entire topic so off course, so I apologize! Yes, a coward. Definitely Captain Coward. Smile

Keep your rosaries out of my ovaries, and your theology out of my biology.
"If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people." --Dr. House
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15-03-2013, 10:20 PM
RE: Is God the head of the Captain Coward club?
(15-03-2013 10:12 PM)darthbreezy Wrote:  Wow, what a great reply! I definitely agree that it's overhyped to apply as a scapegoat for problems that have come about from other people. I do not have a television and only watch one show on my computer when it comes on once a week, so I apologize if it came off as my information coming from a fictional police procedural. If anything my fascination with the show comes from my already existing interest in psychology, law, crime, etc. In any case, I agree that it can be used as a scapegoat for problems outside of criminal behaviors. In regards to the pedophilia, there's a thread somewhere around here about legalizing pedophilia that got pretty heated (of course). Someone said that 'just because society thinks something's wrong, doesn't mean that's a basis for creating laws against the behavior.' I couldn't believe it! All because 40-year-old men in some European country could marry 14-year-old girls, so why can't we in the States? I didn't mean to take this entire topic so off course, so I apologize! Yes, a coward. Definitely Captain Coward. Smile
Yeah, I read some of the responses in the pedo thread and frankly, it was a wholly unproductive discussion. As for derailing the thread... I haven't read a thread on this forum that didn't get derailed and personally, I like it that way. Conversation should flow to whatever topics are of interest to the participants. This isn't a school or a prison. But then... I repeat myself. Tongue

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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