Is Heaven Really a Reward?
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10-04-2012, 08:48 AM
RE: Is Heaven Really a Reward?
defined like that I must agree with you, but I doubt any theist would agree on the definition, heaven is like winning a prize and hell is loosing, they're not intended to be punishment or rewards for future conduct but the result of previous behaviour. I would say that the promise/threat of heaven/hell are the reward and punishment for actions in this life. I think that's the definition a theist would give you

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10-04-2012, 09:14 AM
RE: Is Heaven Really a Reward?
I have to agree with nach_in, the theistic definition makes more sense. If you do something that someone else desires you to do, and then they give you something (something they believe you want) in return for that action, it is a 'reward'.
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10-04-2012, 02:59 PM
RE: Is Heaven Really a Reward?
(10-04-2012 05:25 AM)evilflower Wrote:  I got a feeling I haven't explained my thoughts clearly enough.

My original idea was, there is no sense in talking about either reward or punishment (whatever form they take) when they are eternal.

Here I am trying to see through the eyes of somebody who rewards (positively or negatively), not somebody who is trying to achieve the reward. I am arguing that the whole nature of any reward (punishment) is correcting one's behavior. That's why it's called "positive (negative) reinforcement" - it reinforces one's behavior.

Therefore, a reward cannot last forever. If it lasts infinitely long, it is not a reward at all. That's why Heaven is not a positive reinforcement. Hell is not a punishment. (Assumed they exist, of course.)

What are your thoughts on this?

(Maybe this topic rather belongs to the "Philosophy" section.)
Really neither are useful. You cannot reward or punish behaviours many years after the event and expect the person to know. Nor would the actions correct any behaviour. When I brought up a question many years ago (can't remember the question, but I remember the response), the answer was "it's magic!"--OK not really, but it fits better than the real response: god separates your soul and does stuff so you feel happy in heaven and feel tortured for eternity in hell, although the person (it was a minister) said your soul is split and you go to both heaven and hell at the same time....

The closest thing to making it a reward or punishment (suspending the knowledge about it not altering or doing anything for behaviours as it happens much later), would be if the reward and punishment was upped each day. But even then you'd get so used to it that it wouldn't really matter. Really you'd forget (assuming you remember anything) what anything else was like. There was a whitest kids u know sketch kind of like this--the devil made them make disgusting foods, then after a long while they were like "everyone's used to it" so the devil made them make 5 star restaurant foods to torture people with.

Really though it seems to fall in the group of magic, and total loss of free will (granted I don't believe we have it now, but that's from non-religious foundations), and a continuous re-writing of memories to make the torture be torture and the pleasure be pleasure. Otherwise they'd get used to it. Or, the concept of the soul is that it is nothing like the human body, and doesn't have anything in common with it other than it's held responsible for actions it may-or-may-not have been able to control.

I'll really start to ramble if I continue.
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10-04-2012, 03:20 PM
RE: Is Heaven Really a Reward?
You... floss... your cat?

How...

Why?

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10-04-2012, 06:43 PM
RE: Is Heaven Really a Reward?
(07-04-2012 04:11 PM)elemts Wrote:  I have come to the conclusion that both heaven and hell (potentially) are undesirable. You either burn for eternity, or get to worship a god for eternity. Not really a reward there. Really, if hell is just a separation from god or becoming nothing--that's the real reward! Of course I doubt many religious people really think about just how long eternity is, or just how messed up both heaven and hell are.

Yup, eternal indentured servitude or eternal torture. Feels the same to me. Just let me not be when I'm done being. How the fuck hard is that? Everything else just feels strained and contrived.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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10-04-2012, 07:08 PM
RE: Is Heaven Really a Reward?
(10-04-2012 03:20 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  You... floss... your cat?

How...

Why?
Don't ask questions you don't want answered.

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10-04-2012, 08:31 PM
Bug RE: Is Heaven Really a Reward?
It depends on which heaven you go to. There are a thousand heavens to choose from, and here are the more popular selections:

Christian Heaven: Commonly perceived as a place where people become angels and play harps all day long. There is a golden city within heaven which paths are embedded with jewels and shiny stuff. Drawback is the eternal worship of a deity. A fine place to go if you do not mind singing praises to someone every second of your afterlife.

Buddhist Heaven: Nirvana is a very peaceful place, with lotus flowers and ponds. The lotus symbolises purity in the midst of chaos. It is a place for a peaceful afterlife. Plain peace and quiet. You have to go through a few rounds of re-incarnation though.

Muslim Heaven: Similar to Christian Heaven, but with the promise of 72 virgins/white resins if you become an hero. Not a good place for virgins to enter.

Viking Heaven: Valhalla. Where you get to fight every day and drink mead. Basically you live like a hero there. Nice place for those seeking a little action.

FSM Heaven: Beer Volcanoes and Stripper Factories. What else is there to say?

Hindu Heaven: The life of a Hindu is like a game. Collect good Karma points and avoid bad Karma points. If you manage to collect only Good Karma points throughout your play through, you achieve a 100% completion and get to become a Parmatma, the ultimate soul in which you merge with God. Kind of like Arthas and the Lich King.

Ancient Greek/Roman Heaven: Mount Olympus, where the Gods enjoy themselves. Elysium Fields will be the heaven for mortals. Very peaceful place with mountains, and every one will be happy. Drawback is the possibility of sunburn as the sun never stops shining there.

Book now with your local religious agent for a one-way trip to heaven. Discounts only available during school holidays.

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11-04-2012, 12:38 PM (This post was last modified: 11-04-2012 12:43 PM by evilflower.)
RE: Is Heaven Really a Reward?
(10-04-2012 03:20 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  You... floss... your cat?

How...

Why?
Oh my flying spaghetti monster...

kingschosen, thanks for pointing this out.
I meant "comb". Where the hell this floss came from, I have no idea. I'm a non-native english speaker.

damn... Finally I know why I'm not being understood. LMAO
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