Is Jesus God?
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01-11-2012, 05:05 AM
RE: Is Jesus God?
(31-10-2012 06:38 PM)The Theist Wrote:  You guys should be proud, I guess. For obstinately persisting in willful ignorance.

I can't speak for all atheists, but there's a tendency among us to enjoy research and to fact-check before passing on information. I'm not "willfully ignorant", nor are many of my atheist friends. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they got that way through ignorance.

Are you reasonable? Would facts persuade you to change your mind? If not, then please knock off the insults. Your frustration at your inability to persuade us is a silly thing to be upset about if you are equally stubborn.

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01-11-2012, 06:48 AM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2012 08:16 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Is Jesus God?
(01-11-2012 05:05 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(31-10-2012 06:38 PM)The Theist Wrote:  You guys should be proud, I guess. For obstinately persisting in willful ignorance.

I can't speak for all atheists, but there's a tendency among us to enjoy research and to fact-check before passing on information. I'm not "willfully ignorant", nor are many of my atheist friends. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they got that way through ignorance.

Are you reasonable? Would facts persuade you to change your mind? If not, then please knock off the insults. Your frustration at your inability to persuade us is a silly thing to be upset about if you are equally stubborn.

One of the marks of a reasonably sane person, would be to think to himself, if 99.99999999 % of the world said something different than what the person is saying would be "hmm, just maybe the fact that I am THE only person on the face of the earth saying this, should give me pause, and maybe I'll do a re-check". There is no "camp" or "group" of scholars with the position of The Theist, with respect to this issue. He is THE only one on the planet attempting to say these things. It's beyond ludicrous. It's simply delusional. I'm not sure if he's a troll or just mentally ill. I suspect the latter.

The ENTIRE history of the Hebrew nation was one of maintaining the status of the Yahweh god, and his PREEMINENCE . They were polytheists, but they practiced monolateralism. Again and again in their history there are examples where the status of the Yahweh god is seen as the HIGHEST divine being, and is NOT in any way equated with other beings, or even other divine beings.

Isa 42:8 I am YAHWEH; that is My name; and I will not give My glory to another.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_claim.htm
http://www.search-the-scriptures.org/The...20YHWH.pdf
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?...018AAYQrlD
http://www.eliyah.com/talmidim/mercy.html
http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Document...Satan.html
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...rsion=HCSB

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01-11-2012, 07:10 AM
RE: Is Jesus God?
Newton also did not have anywhere near the resources scholars do today. Cherry picking your biblical scholars to only include those you want is both special pleading an appeal to authority.

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01-11-2012, 10:25 AM
RE: Is Jesus God?
(01-11-2012 06:48 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  One of the marks of a reasonably sane person, would be to think to himself, if 99.99999999 % of the world said something different than what the person is saying would be "hmm, just maybe the fact that I am THE only person on the face of the earth saying this, should give me pause, and maybe I'll do a re-check"

This is an appeal to popularity. Now I'm not doubting that it's true as a rule (after all, the majority is usually convinced about ideas established through evidence) but it's not necessarily true. Back in 1000 BCE, what percentage of the population thought the Earth was flat? It didn't become round over the years in order to fit with the majority's conclusion.

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01-11-2012, 10:34 AM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2012 01:10 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Is Jesus God?
(01-11-2012 10:25 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(01-11-2012 06:48 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  One of the marks of a reasonably sane person, would be to think to himself, if 99.99999999 % of the world said something different than what the person is saying would be "hmm, just maybe the fact that I am THE only person on the face of the earth saying this, should give me pause, and maybe I'll do a re-check"

This is an appeal to popularity. Now I'm not doubting that it's true as a rule (after all, the majority is usually convinced about ideas established through evidence) but it's not necessarily true. Back in 1000 BCE, what percentage of the population thought the Earth was flat? It didn't become round over the years in order to fit with the majority's conclusion.

In this case the "majority" I'm speaking about IS the authority. I'm not appealing to popularity. The scholars have very good reason, and careers based on evidence and archeology, and literary criticism. There is no debate in academia about these matters. You are actually doing the Fallacy of the False Analogy.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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01-11-2012, 11:22 AM
RE: Is Jesus God?
When reading the gospels accounts of what Jesus supposedly said in his own words, we can safely conclude that he differentiated himself from this Christian God so many times that it's indisputable.

Christians have this horrible knack of incorporating a structured belief system into what they are reading, as far as the gospel accounts are concerned. As an atheist, I am obligated by reason alone to dispute any historical validity to the claims made by people in antiquity regarding the supernatural aspects of this Jesus fellow, but that does not mean that we throw the baby out with the dirty water.

I lean towards the greater possibility that somebody named Jesus probably lived in the 1st century, and his life was embellished by a few zealots who were trying to sell their new found religion to anybody who would listen. Despite the scant evidence exterior to the bible to support some kind of historicity, the argument for historicity of a human Jesus who was crucified by Pontius Pilate sometime in the 1st century is a better argument than the "Jesus-did-not-exist-and-was-a-total-myth" malarkey. In other words, the argument for the mythers is loaded with unsupported assertion, arguments from silence, and highly improbable explanations. There's no evidence to support a myth, logically.

Anyways, I agree with the scholars that some of the things that were spoken by, and attributed to Jesus, may very well be things he said, and in the context of those quotes, he makes it very clear that he was not God numerous times.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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01-11-2012, 11:54 AM
RE: Is Jesus God?
(01-11-2012 11:22 AM)Free Wrote:  When reading the gospels accounts of what Jesus supposedly said in his own words, we can safely conclude that he differentiated himself from this Christian God so many times that it's indisputable.

Nothing in the Gospels can be classified as "his own words." Jesus never said anything according to historical record.

Other than that, I 100% agree.

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01-11-2012, 11:59 AM
RE: Is Jesus God?
(01-11-2012 11:54 AM)NeonMoment Wrote:  
(01-11-2012 11:22 AM)Free Wrote:  When reading the gospels accounts of what Jesus supposedly said in his own words, we can safely conclude that he differentiated himself from this Christian God so many times that it's indisputable.

Nothing in the Gospels can be classified as "his own words." Jesus never said anything according to historical record.

Other than that, I 100% agree.

True, but I'm not speaking about a "historical" record. There's not much of a historical record to conclusively determine if this Jesus even existed.

Just talking about what we see in the Gospel record. We can view it as fiction or non-fiction, and it won't change the fact that whatever is written there exists as it is.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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01-11-2012, 01:16 PM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2012 02:51 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Is Jesus God?
Since all the gospels used the Q source, except John, and Mark was the first written after that, and used Q + a never found "Book of Sayings", all we know is that every word, was in a literary sense "placed in his mouth" by the authors. There are some possible conclusions that can be drawn from that, but the fact that a "gospel", (the "GOOD news"), is inherently biased .. it's a statement FOR believers use, ("proclamation") in liturgical celebrations, BY believers, about what they ALREADY believed, it is inconceivable way what we could consider anything objective.

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01-11-2012, 02:10 PM
RE: Is Jesus God?
(01-11-2012 01:16 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Since all the gospels used the Q source, except John, and Mark was the first written after that, and used Q + a never found "Book of Sayings", all we know is that every word, was in a literary sense "placed in his mouth" by the authors. There are some possible conclusions that can be drawn from that, but the fact that a "gospel", (the "GOOD news"), is inherently biased .. it's a statement FOR believers use, ("proclamation") in liturgical celebrations, BY believers, about what they ALREADY believed, it is in conceivable way what we could consider anything objective.

Well, although the "Q" source appears to be sound, it's still very hypothetical. We also do not know that "every word was placed in his mouth by the authors," this is an assertion, and merely assumed.

Of course the gospels are going to be biased, but they still have significant historical value, regardless of whether or not anyone believes a single word of it. They give us insight into 1st and early 2nd century systems of beliefs, as well as idioms, lexicon, prose etc.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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