Is Jesus God?
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01-11-2012, 02:58 PM
RE: Is Jesus God?
(01-11-2012 02:10 PM)Free Wrote:  
(01-11-2012 01:16 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Since all the gospels used the Q source, except John, and Mark was the first written after that, and used Q + a never found "Book of Sayings", all we know is that every word, was in a literary sense "placed in his mouth" by the authors. There are some possible conclusions that can be drawn from that, but the fact that a "gospel", (the "GOOD news"), is inherently biased .. it's a statement FOR believers use, ("proclamation") in liturgical celebrations, BY believers, about what they ALREADY believed, it is in conceivable way what we could consider anything objective.

Well, although the "Q" source appears to be sound, it's still very hypothetical. We also do not know that "every word was placed in his mouth by the authors," this is an assertion, and merely assumed.

Of course the gospels are going to be biased, but they still have significant historical value, regardless of whether or not anyone believes a single word of it. They give us insight into 1st and early 2nd century systems of beliefs, as well as idioms, lexicon, prose etc.

It's not "very hypothetical". That's like saying "Evolution is just a Theory". It's the ONLY proposed explanation that answers the questions to date. Got a better one ? Yes we do know that every word was "placed in his" mouth. It's the equivalent, but passive form, of saying he said something. It just puts another light on saying the SAME thing. If I write something about what you just said to me, and I quote you, I am "placing words in your mouth". It says nothing about whether I actually heard you correctly, or what you actually said. All it means is that I am *saying*, that's what I'm saying you said. Humans who lived in a culture with magical beings and magical thinking all around them had no clue what "historical accuracy", and the fact that Romans FOUGHT about it later proves that even THEY did not accept what the word "history" meant to them.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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01-11-2012, 03:19 PM
RE: Is Jesus God?
(01-11-2012 10:34 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-11-2012 10:25 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  This is an appeal to popularity. Now I'm not doubting that it's true as a rule (after all, the majority is usually convinced about ideas established through evidence) but it's not necessarily true. Back in 1000 BCE, what percentage of the population thought the Earth was flat? It didn't become round over the years in order to fit with the majority's conclusion.

In this case the "majority" I'm speaking about IS the authority. I'm not appealing to popularity. The scholars have very good reason, and careers based on evidence and archeology, and literary criticism. There is no debate in academia about these matters. You are actually doing the Fallacy of the False Analogy.

You're not scoring any points here by naming fallacies at me. It's not even an analogy at all, but rather an example that demonstrates why an appeal to popularity is fallacious. Would you have rather than I simply cited it?

And you didn't make an appeal to an authority, either. If the majority could be considered an authority, then the appeal to popularity wouldn't be a fallacy. You then go on to say "The scholars have very good reason... etc." which is an actual appeal to authority (the scholars don't make up a majority, so clearly it's a different citation here), but if you had been appealing to the scholars in your first post rather than to the "99.9999999...%", then I wouldn't have called it an appeal to popularity.

Go ahead and rationalize your faults if your ego needs that. But you could actually learn something from criticism and grow from it if you could put your ego aside.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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01-11-2012, 03:27 PM
RE: Is Jesus God?
(01-11-2012 03:19 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  You're not scoring any points here by naming fallacies at me. It's not even an analogy at all, but rather an example that demonstrates why an appeal to popularity is fallacious. Would you have rather than I simply cited it?

And you didn't make an appeal to an authority, either. If the majority could be considered an authority, then the appeal to popularity wouldn't be a fallacy. You then go on to say "The scholars have very good reason... etc." which is an actual appeal to authority (the scholars don't make up a majority, so clearly it's a different citation here), but if you had been appealing to the scholars in your first post rather than to the "99.9999999...%", then I wouldn't have called it an appeal to popularity.

Go ahead and rationalize your faults if your ego needs that. But you could actually learn something from criticism and grow from it if you could put your ego aside.

Do you hear that, Bucky? Sounds like good advice to me, don't you think? I think so. Real good advice. This is how we learn, Bucky. We make mistakes. And we learn from them. Do you understand that, Buck? Think you can reign that massive self destructive ego in? Hmmmm?
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01-11-2012, 03:30 PM
RE: Is Jesus God?
(01-11-2012 03:27 PM)The Theist Wrote:  
(01-11-2012 03:19 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  You're not scoring any points here by naming fallacies at me. It's not even an analogy at all, but rather an example that demonstrates why an appeal to popularity is fallacious. Would you have rather than I simply cited it?

And you didn't make an appeal to an authority, either. If the majority could be considered an authority, then the appeal to popularity wouldn't be a fallacy. You then go on to say "The scholars have very good reason... etc." which is an actual appeal to authority (the scholars don't make up a majority, so clearly it's a different citation here), but if you had been appealing to the scholars in your first post rather than to the "99.9999999...%", then I wouldn't have called it an appeal to popularity.

Go ahead and rationalize your faults if your ego needs that. But you could actually learn something from criticism and grow from it if you could put your ego aside.

Do you hear that, Bucky? Sounds like good advice to me, don't you think? I think so. Real good advice. This is how we learn, Bucky. We make mistakes. And we learn from them. Do you understand that, Buck? Think you can reign that massive self destructive ego in? Hmmmm?

You forgot the examples, oh deluded one. If YOU are an examle of someone who has "learned", then we're all in trouble. "Ad hominem is the last resort of a fool".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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01-11-2012, 03:31 PM
RE: Is Jesus God?
(01-11-2012 03:27 PM)The Theist Wrote:  Do you hear that, Bucky? Sounds like good advice to me, don't you think? I think so. Real good advice. This is how we learn, Bucky. We make mistakes. And we learn from them. Do you understand that, Buck? Think you can reign that massive self destructive ego in? Hmmmm?

I take the "reputation" arguments back. I can see now why The Theist's reputation is suffering.

I wasn't trying to be insulting, The Theist... I'd actually like to see Bucky Ball grow as a person and become more rational. I'm aiming for constructive criticism... and I don't see that in your post.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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01-11-2012, 03:35 PM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2012 03:55 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Is Jesus God?
(01-11-2012 03:31 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(01-11-2012 03:27 PM)The Theist Wrote:  Do you hear that, Bucky? Sounds like good advice to me, don't you think? I think so. Real good advice. This is how we learn, Bucky. We make mistakes. And we learn from them. Do you understand that, Buck? Think you can reign that massive self destructive ego in? Hmmmm?

I take the "reputation" arguments back. I can see now why The Theist's reputation is suffering.

I wasn't trying to be insulting, The Theist... I'd actually like to see Bucky Ball grow as a person and become more rational. I'm aiming for constructive criticism... and I don't see that in your post.

That's mighty patronizing. You need to provide examples as well. I specifically answered you. You are making a generally patronizing comment. YOU are no better than anyone here, or more "grown up" than anyone else here. I told you once before, if I need any advice, I'll be sure and ask.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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01-11-2012, 03:41 PM
RE: Is Jesus God?
(01-11-2012 03:31 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I take the "reputation" arguments back. I can see now why The Theist's reputation is suffering.

I wasn't trying to be insulting, The Theist... I'd actually like to see Bucky Ball grow as a person and become more rational. I'm aiming for constructive criticism... and I don't see that in your post.

Oh, I've been trying to tell him that for some time. I don't know what I did to set him off from the very start, but he has been raggin' on me with that monster ego some time.

But he's like a child who it becomes entertaining to push his buttons because you know he's going to go off. Like a firecracker or a water balloon. Amusing and entertaining.
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01-11-2012, 03:42 PM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2012 03:46 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Is Jesus God?
Anyways whether or not jesus is god, a god, or a part of god doesn't really matter to me.

It's what your beliefs tell you to do that bothers me. The way a label hides extremism and become the cause by which destructive behaviors are justified.

The tool used by preachers, and creatures of their ilk to try and assert control over groups of people through sophistry.

When society learns how to tell truth from lies, we'll have a truly free society.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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01-11-2012, 03:50 PM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2012 04:00 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Is Jesus God?
(01-11-2012 03:41 PM)The Theist Wrote:  
(01-11-2012 03:31 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I take the "reputation" arguments back. I can see now why The Theist's reputation is suffering.

I wasn't trying to be insulting, The Theist... I'd actually like to see Bucky Ball grow as a person and become more rational. I'm aiming for constructive criticism... and I don't see that in your post.

Oh, I've been trying to tell him that for some time. I don't know what I did to set him off from the very start, but he has been raggin' on me with that monster ego some time.

But he's like a child who it becomes entertaining to push his buttons because you know he's going to go off. Like a firecracker or a water balloon. Amusing and entertaining.

I guess being a child is better than having Alzheimers, and a mental patient.
There are mountains of unanswered posts awaiting you, sir. When you're done with your bullshit trolling, you may try answering them you old troll. You're getting you ass handed to you on your cut and paste thread debate page and in the discussion about it. If I were you, I'd be over here also trying to deflect attention from your embarrassing posts in the last few days.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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01-11-2012, 04:43 PM
RE: Is Jesus God?
(01-11-2012 03:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I guess being a child is better than having Alzheimers, and a mental patient.
There are mountains of unanswered posts awaiting you, sir. When you're done with your bullshit trolling, you may try answering them you old troll. You're getting you ass handed to you on your cut and paste thread debate page and in the discussion about it. If I were you, I'd be over here also trying to deflect attention from your embarrassing posts in the last few days.

Oh, you . . . Well! I Never! How dare you speak to your elder with such, such . . . mental patient . . . I would rather be a mental patient than a child or Alzheimer patient. I think it would be a great deal more entertaining and not so much accountability.
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