Is Reality.... A Lie?
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23-03-2012, 05:57 AM
RE: Is Reality.... A Lie?
(23-03-2012 05:22 AM)nach_in Wrote:  
(23-03-2012 05:12 AM)Thomas Wrote:  
(15-03-2012 10:05 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(15-03-2012 10:00 PM)Thomas Wrote:  The short answer is that if you cannot detect that your senses are deceiving you then you have no basis for questioning the possibility of deceit.

Granted. But I have yet to find a sound basis for logically concluding that I even am. Let alone you. ... Logic is a tool, not a God.

Descartes gave us, "I think therefore I am". His argument is that we must exist at least in the mind because we can question our existence. Who is doing the questioning? It must be me, therefore I exist.

He could not prove that anyone else existed outside of his own mind.
Existentialists and Empiricists later dismissed Descartes skepticism regarding the existence of others using the argument at the deception of the senses must be detected or we must assume we are not deceived. We don’t need to waste time (per the Existentialists) wondering about things that we can neither prove nor disprove. The existence of god is another time waster for the existentialist. Just say simply “no proof” and move on to more important matters like “how do we discover our authentic selves?”

But how do we know things that question its own existence exist? Descartes missed a premiss in his reasoning, A=things that think exist, B=I think C=therefore I exist... the first premiss is missing and it's not proved so Descartes was wrong!!!

that said, I'm going to ride my unicorn to the edge of the universe Big Grin

I don't think he offered it as a proof. He offered it as an a priori truth, something that just has to be true (or something like that). I disagree and call it an assumption, but whatever you call it, you simply have to break it down to that to find out if there are flaws in the argument. It's possible that he might be wrong in that, but where do you start with if you don't assume you exist in the first place. I disagree a lot with Descartes, but in the first assumption, I'm having a hard time coming up with anything else.

A theist and an atheist go to heaven.
theist: "See! There is a heaven."
atheist: "So, you consider heaven a joke too?"
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23-03-2012, 08:00 AM
RE: Is Reality.... A Lie?
I always get annoyed when someone says that discussing something is a waste of time.

1. Then why bother commenting?
2. Maybe to you, but I actually enjoy conversation.

I really like talking about god. It's neat. Not a waste of my time because I enjoy it. I just wish it wouldn't have to always get so heated. More than God I enjoy discussing existence because it really doesn't make any sense.
I'll bet everyone talks about something that someone else views as a waste of time. But that's entirely subjective.

Of course there's no way to prove it. So?

@ LadyJane, I used to punch my fist through walls all the time actually, but that's because I had anger problems. Walls, doors, televisions, windows, faces... etc..
And yeah, I tried to bend spoons, but not because I thought I had super powers but because I watched Penn and Teller explain how it worked and I wanted to do it too. Never got it to happen, but I think I forgot an important part.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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23-03-2012, 08:25 AM
RE: Is Reality.... A Lie?
(22-03-2012 09:20 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Technically i think the answer might be yes.
Everything we see is not as we see it. It's a trick of the senses. A way for our bodies to make sense of the data we receive so that we can survive in the world.
I imagine that if there are creatures lurking within the other dimensions they would "see" differently.
But most likely to the same end result.
Just like how a dog sees differently than us but he still can't walk through walls or fly. He still follows the same laws.

When I was a kid the one thing that always confused me was why we can't walk through walls. Sounds stupid I know.
But I'd read somewhere that we are all built of the same basic components. Me, and a wall share the same materials at the most basic level. That there were tiny little molecules all interacting with one another to hold us together, and that there might be a certain frequency of sound that could actually cause us to vibrate into oblivion. But on that same level of thought, if we could find a way to make our molecules talk to the molecules making up the wall, we could get them to vibrate past one another.
This stuck in my head for years, and I was like the kid who watches star wars and spends the next few years positive they can use a force to move things if only they can figure out how to access the force.
I don't even remember where I read any of that. Knowing me it was probably a comic book. Though I was pretty into science my whole life and spent a lot of time reading Popular Science and shit like that. Also PMK for kids. Not just because of Elisha Cuthbert either... though Humina humina...

I suggest you read "The Grand Design" by Stephen Hawking if you are into this type of stuff. =D

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23-03-2012, 10:47 AM
RE: Is Reality.... A Lie?
Funny you should say that because I saw it on sale yesterday and looked at it real hard for about ten actual minutes before I remembered I already have a huge book commitment.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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23-03-2012, 02:07 PM
RE: Is Reality.... A Lie?
(23-03-2012 10:47 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Funny you should say that because I saw it on sale yesterday and looked at it real hard for about ten actual minutes before I remembered I already have a huge book commitment.

It is truly a magnificently composed book that covers subjects such as "reality" and perception.

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23-03-2012, 03:43 PM
RE: Is Reality.... A Lie?
(23-03-2012 05:12 AM)Thomas Wrote:  
(15-03-2012 10:05 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Granted. But I have yet to find a sound basis for logically concluding that I even am. Let alone you. ... Logic is a tool, not a God.

Descartes gave us, "I think therefore I am". His argument is that we must exist at least in the mind because we can question our existence. Who is doing the questioning? It must be me, therefore I exist.

Ummm ... yeah. Girly spent a semester shredding cogito ergo sum some 30 odd years ago now. Professor said it was one of the best analysis he'd ever seen. ... So I'm still not sure I am. Like I said, logic ain't no God.

I am us and we is me. ... bitches.
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23-03-2012, 03:57 PM
RE: Is Reality.... A Lie?
(23-03-2012 03:43 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(23-03-2012 05:12 AM)Thomas Wrote:  
(15-03-2012 10:05 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Granted. But I have yet to find a sound basis for logically concluding that I even am. Let alone you. ... Logic is a tool, not a God.

Descartes gave us, "I think therefore I am". His argument is that we must exist at least in the mind because we can question our existence. Who is doing the questioning? It must be me, therefore I exist.

Ummm ... yeah. Girly spent a semester shredding cogito ergo sum some 30 odd years ago now. Professor said it was one of the best analysis he'd ever seen. ... So I'm still not sure I am. Like I said, logic ain't no God.

Oh, I agree. The thinking part is garbage. That makes it way too complex, because you haven't even established thinking yet. I can't seem to start without the base of self though.. still an assumption though. Granted, you can start with a storage mechanism. "something", "we'll call that something data", "data seems to be retained", "data seems to be coming in" type start up, before moving on. What books or articles have a decent start to building everything up from? I mean I already have preconceived notions.. hard to avoid at the stage we are at, but would like to hear other thoughts on it myself.

... I'm guessing of a bootstrap notion where you have as little to work with from the start as possible to minimize assumption, then build everything from there.

A theist and an atheist go to heaven.
theist: "See! There is a heaven."
atheist: "So, you consider heaven a joke too?"
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23-03-2012, 04:04 PM
RE: Is Reality.... A Lie?
Reality, as everything else, falls into the Münchhausen Trilemma

maybe everything is bound to the rules of quantum mechanics and its uncertainty, existence itself

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23-03-2012, 04:37 PM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2012 05:02 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Is Reality.... A Lie?
(23-03-2012 03:57 PM)craniumonempty Wrote:  I can't seem to start without the base of self though..

Why you think you need a base to start from? ... Pretty sure I started with no base. 50 years later, still don't think I need no base. Tabula rasa, brother.

I am us and we is me. ... bitches.
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23-03-2012, 05:50 PM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2012 06:13 PM by craniumonempty.)
RE: Is Reality.... A Lie?
(23-03-2012 04:37 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(23-03-2012 03:57 PM)craniumonempty Wrote:  I can't seem to start without the base of self though..

Why you think you need a base to start from? ... Pretty sure I started with no base. 50 years later, still don't think I need no base. Tabula rasa, brother.

lol, I just mean as a starting point for a philosophical base.. Not for reality... Did that even make sense? I hope it did. Either way, philosophy is amusing and I like to think about it all the time. I don't really get any breakthrough ideas or anything, but it's almost like playing an intense video game in a way.

As far as tabula rasa, I basically would be starting from the base I have now, but it's convoluted... meaning, we don't really know what we start with. We have pattern matching skills.. that's for certain. Actually much of our beginning is mostly mechanical ability that can be formed easily by environment. I'll read up on it a bit more. It gives a place to start for self though, but it's still a complex beginning and too many assumptions from the gate. I'm trying to simplify as much as possible... not sure why (see video game analogy earlier)
Oh, well, I read the wiki article... and it's not too different from what I was saying earlier. There is the place where the data is put and the data comes in. That's good, but as far as actually stating that everything is strictly environment ignores a few things... I mean from reality. We do have a few built in things that help us along in a way. That blank slate has some information already on it, but it's still hard to judge what... maybe it is better to just say it's blank, but there is something there. I guess it works on the philosophy side though, but talking about reality there seems to be something there from the start. Granted it was something that started very simply and built up over time as species got more complex, but we have instincts in that blank slate that influence us.... For philosophy... well, I have to maybe read more Locke. I think I actually read it, but my mind is blank on it currently Tongue

A theist and an atheist go to heaven.
theist: "See! There is a heaven."
atheist: "So, you consider heaven a joke too?"
------
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