Is Religion Necessary for Some People?
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19-02-2014, 01:28 PM
RE: Is Religion Necessary for Some People?
(18-02-2014 02:13 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I think what you said is right in the context of them being raised in religion. I'm not sure how they'd handle things if they simply weren't raised that way.

I agree completely. If one's morality, sense of purpose, and general happiness do not have their foundation in religion to begin with, what shock is there to be had?

Quote:Hopefully fundamentalism will become a lunatic fringe, and the two groups of people you talk about simply just cope with things using religion, but stop using it to hate teh gehys or fight evolution.

I actually disagree with you here. I don't believe religious moderation is going to save the public from religious stupidity or theocracy. If the fundamentals of something are harmful and incorrect, how will partaking in moderation help? Even if we see a wholesale abandonment of the fundamentals in favor of a vague humanism that it can sometimes devolve into, are we all that safe? The religious texts are available to each generation in their original violent splendor. How long before we have a fundamentalist revival calling for the literal interpretation to be taken up once more? Islam underwent just such a revival in the last few decades, and look how that has turned out. I don't think anyone is truly free of fundamentalism, until the fundamentals are universally considered evil.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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19-02-2014, 01:30 PM
RE: Is Religion Necessary for Some People?
(18-02-2014 02:15 PM)donotwant Wrote:  I can't answer that because I don't know what they would be like without religion. But I think those people who would die without religion do exist.
But at least pick a good religion instead of the one with hells and original sins and all that kind of disgusting shit.

What religion would you recommend to someone like that?

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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19-02-2014, 01:41 PM (This post was last modified: 19-02-2014 02:32 PM by Dark Phoenix.)
RE: Is Religion Necessary for Some People?
(18-02-2014 03:13 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  DP - Absolutely agree with both your basic premises you make on the two angles behind believing. I was just stewing over starting another thread about the mindset of believers that I interact with, but your OP is perfectly written to that effect.

I appreciate your compliment very much. I am happy to serve, even if I did not know I was writing on the same subject as yourself.

Quote:There is that feeling I see, when talking to strict theists, of them clinging to their mommy's leg like I am a slimely stranger offering them tainted candy or something, as though I intend to abduct them from their safe place.

This had me laughing out loud. It is a beautifully worded and makes a sharp point.

Quote:I guess ignorance is a safe stance, as is emotional security - so hard to penetrate either without a total shutdown on their part.

For a country that claims to represent the free and the brave (for those of us living in the USA), we are absolutely obsessed with emotional safety. It seems like every generation has their head in the sand more and more, comfortably watching reality television and chanting meaningless slogans like "Jesus loves you". The very concept that no one is safe, and no one is taking care of us from the sky is too directly contradictory a fantasy of most Americans.

Quote:To hear people like Mr. Kenny boy Ham say that nothing, absolutely nothing, will change their mind or challenge the Bible. That is a warped mind in my opinion, which cannot be reasoned with without phsycological implications as a result of this "sickness".

In my mind, being unwilling to consider new evidence and change one's opinion is a major sign of stupidity. The dumb, loud, and completely certain always seem to scream over the smart, quiet, and full of doubt.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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19-02-2014, 01:49 PM
RE: Is Religion Necessary for Some People?
(18-02-2014 03:36 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  I don't think that there is anyone for whom religion is an absolute necessity.

Perhaps not, yet there a great many I know who are too far along, or too addicted, to go back now. They have given up too many years and too much effort.

Quote:I view the topic like addiction. There are those who would break if the were taken off their drug of choice cold turkey, but could be slowly weaned off the drug and go on to live a normal, sober, life.

Except that this drug is administered at the earliest age possible by people who believe that humanity is incapable of living morally without a daily dose.

Quote:People like my former self fall into your "emotionally weak and vulnerable" category. In their present state, they are mostly incapable of actively questioning their faith. To question their faith would undermine their faith, so their brain seeks to reject it. It is the presuppositional trap that I've seen many otherwise intelligent people fall into. Their mind puts up a block against anything that is contradictory to the "knowledge" that God exists. Only once a seed of doubt has taken hold somewhere in their brain can they even begin to ask questions.

I fit into this category when I was a believer as well. However, my love of knowledge and the truth overcame my fears and vulnerabilities.

When you say "the knowledge that god exists" I can't help but notice how the term "knowledge" has been literally redefined for religious use. When I think back to my religious training I can remember quite a few words that were re-purposed in that manner. Truth was synonymous with "the gospel". Love was synonymous with "Jesus". Knowledge was synonymous with "faith". I suppose it's ironic that they didn't even have to be subtle. I just accepted the terms as defined by my religion. What a sheep I was.

Quote:For these people, there is always hope that something will slip past their walls of ignorance.

I run the risk of personal insanity in the meantime.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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19-02-2014, 02:15 PM
RE: Is Religion Necessary for Some People?
(19-02-2014 01:49 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(18-02-2014 03:36 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  I don't think that there is anyone for whom religion is an absolute necessity.

Perhaps not, yet there a great many I know who are too far along, or too addicted, to go back now. They have given up too many years and too much effort.

Many are too far gone to ever reach an atheist conclusion on their own. I still don't view it as impossible, just highly improbable. And it would also require some outside influence.

Quote:

Quote:I view the topic like addiction. There are those who would break if the were taken off their drug of choice cold turkey, but could be slowly weaned off the drug and go on to live a normal, sober, life.

Except that this drug is administered at the earliest age possible by people who believe that humanity is incapable of living morally without a daily dose.

That just makes it more difficult and a longer process to wean them. You and I are both examples of being fed the drug at an early age and still being able to kick the habit. I can remember early in my doubting phase where I was actively seeking the drug. I wasn't comfortable with feelings that come with doubt, they were much like withdrawal. I just KNEW that all I needed was a good dose of holy spirit and I'd be back on track.

Quote:
Quote:People like my former self fall into your "emotionally weak and vulnerable" category. In their present state, they are mostly incapable of actively questioning their faith. To question their faith would undermine their faith, so their brain seeks to reject it. It is the presuppositional trap that I've seen many otherwise intelligent people fall into. Their mind puts up a block against anything that is contradictory to the "knowledge" that God exists. Only once a seed of doubt has taken hold somewhere in their brain can they even begin to ask questions.

I fit into this category when I was a believer as well. However, my love of knowledge and the truth overcame my fears and vulnerabilities.

When you say "the knowledge that god exists" I can't help but notice how the term "knowledge" has been literally redefined for religious use. When I think back to my religious training I can remember quite a few words that were re-purposed in that manner. Truth was synonymous with "the gospel". Love was synonymous with "Jesus". Knowledge was synonymous with "faith". I suppose it's ironic that they didn't even have to be subtle. I just accepted the terms as defined by my religion. What a sheep I was.

Sheep indeed. I also find this one of the more frustrating things when talking with theists. I can't count the number of times that they claimed to "know" something that is completely unknowable. Pointing out that there is a difference between knowing something and believing something strongly is lost on them.

"The Gospel Truth" is a phrase that makes me want to slap people. To my mind "the gospel truth" = "flat out lie"

Quote:
Quote:For these people, there is always hope that something will slip past their walls of ignorance.

I run the risk of personal insanity in the meantime.

Just remember that no matter how crazy the voices in your head sound, they are far more sane than most theists. Tongue

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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19-02-2014, 11:56 PM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2014 12:57 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Is Religion Necessary for Some People?
Of course, we seem to have a few examples right here. Drich (who relies on his self-authenticating Holy Spirit to ignore the parts of the Bible he doesn't like), Alla (who can't think her way out of a wet paper bag without Jesus), alpha male (master of the false analogy and non sequitur), etc...

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20-02-2014, 12:09 AM
RE: Is Religion Necessary for Some People?
I'm going with you on this, OP. It seems like some people don't have the mental strength to rely on themselves instead of a god to make things happen in their life. Maybe they feel like they need someone like a close friend; they want someone that can care about them, knows them better than they know themselves and someone they feel will support them. So they tell themselves that this god exists and that they need him/them in their lives. As a result, I think these people use religion as a sort of crutch to waddle around because they're too afraid they'll face-plant into the concrete and can't stand back up without it. Something like that anyways.

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20-02-2014, 07:22 AM
RE: Is Religion Necessary for Some People?
I have known and seen people who are super dependent on the community that religions create. Even my partner who was not raised in a church going family depended a lot on a Buddhist community at his local temple to get through some rough times.

In those cases, I don't think or know if it was the belief in a god itself but rather what people found in other people in those communities.

As a side to this, I like what Karl Marx said when he was talking about the Opium of the people. It strikes a chord with me when I hear or see people being so dependent on their religious beliefs. ( Not that I necessarily agree with everything he says)

I've just quickly picked up the piece from Wikipedia

Quote:The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself.
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20-02-2014, 10:55 AM
RE: Is Religion Necessary for Some People?
(18-02-2014 01:26 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I have asked myself the question, is religion necessary for these two categories of people? Wouldn't they be better off if they remained as they are? Could they even grasp life without it, let alone survive the deconversion emotionally? Would they feel pointless and hopeless without their belief?
some of them are hopeless and pointless. Some of them are not. People are not the same.
I am happy Father found me. I am happy He sent His fishermen to my home.
As soon as I heard Restored Gospel I knew that it was what I was looking for.
As soon as they told me about baptism for the dead I was glad that my question was FINALLY answered.
Spirit of Elijah was so strong I couldn't deny it.

English is not my native language.
that awkward moment between the Premortal Existence and your Resurrection
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20-02-2014, 03:47 PM
RE: Is Religion Necessary for Some People?
(20-02-2014 10:55 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(18-02-2014 01:26 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I have asked myself the question, is religion necessary for these two categories of people? Wouldn't they be better off if they remained as they are? Could they even grasp life without it, let alone survive the deconversion emotionally? Would they feel pointless and hopeless without their belief?
some of them are hopeless and pointless. Some of them are not. People are not the same.
I am happy Father found me. I am happy He sent His fishermen to my home.
As soon as I heard Restored Gospel I knew that it was what I was looking for.
As soon as they told me about baptism for the dead I was glad that my question was FINALLY answered.
Spirit of Elijah was so strong I couldn't deny it.

?????????????????

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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