Is Richard Carrier Your Expert? Can You Explain?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-10-2014, 08:04 AM
RE: Is Richard Carrier Your Expert? Can You Explain?
(09-10-2014 06:51 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  
(09-10-2014 06:38 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  YOU have addressed NOT ONE of the actual points Dr. Carrier makes, or that are made against some of his arguments.

Why don't you tell me in your own words what his strongest argument is... and if you think for yourself... why do you need Carrier at all?

Why do you need a consensus among historians at all?

It's a meaningless statement.



Also, your constant "fixing" of people's posts is really goddamn annoying. It makes it look like you don't even want to have a discussion with anyone.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-10-2014, 08:42 AM
RE: Is Richard Carrier Your Expert? Can You Explain?
anonymous:
I don't think anyone here treats Carrier in any sense as an unquestionable authority. Some here take his arguments seriously. I think most take his arguments with a significant grain of salt, despite his credentials and his publication record. Both of these groups expect more from the anti-Carrier camp than "wah wah wah he disagrees with the consensus of christian scholars. wah wah wah he's not credible because he disagrees with my preconceptions and my faith".

If you wish to convince people that Carrier is getting things wrong, deal with his claims and his arguments. If you think Carrier is of no real importance, say so and move on. All you are achieving by fixating on him without addressing his arguments is lending them credibility by contrast with your argumentation.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Hafnof's post
09-10-2014, 08:51 AM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2014 12:13 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Is Richard Carrier Your Expert? Can You Explain?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_by_consensus

"I want to pause here and talk about this notion of consensus, and the rise of what has been called consensus science. I regard consensus science as an extremely pernicious development that ought to be stopped cold in its tracks. Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you're being had.

Let's be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus.

There is no such thing as consensus science. If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus. Period.”
― Michael Crichton


Without an actual discussion of, and evidence for the issues at hand, the premise of all this is dismissed. I care about evidence. Not consensus.

“The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widely spread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.”
― Bertrand Russell

“Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.”
― Leo Tolstoy, A Confession

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.”
― Mark Twain

(Hint to skeptics : look into Carrier's claims re: "Philo's Jesus" ... decide for your self. On the other hand his literary exposition of the myth template of the gospels is compelling, as are his questions concerning what would have been reasonable expectations of both Roman and Jewish authorities *if* any of it had actually happened.

Edit :
There is also an entire body of (liberal) "Christian" scholarship which does not take the gospels as "literally true".
http://www.amazon.com/Trouble-Resurrecti...1598150200
http://www.amazon.com/The-Power-Parable-...=pd_cp_b_2
Anything by John Shelby Spong

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Bucky Ball's post
09-10-2014, 09:23 AM
RE: Is Richard Carrier Your Expert? Can You Explain?
Hey, anonymous 66, get a grip. Quit making up lies.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-10-2014, 02:56 PM
RE: Is Richard Carrier Your Expert? Can You Explain?
(09-10-2014 06:26 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  I've been talking about how I came across the fact that there is a consensus. A majority of experts in the field of ancient history accept that Jesus did exist. That he was indeed a historical figure.. Now, the only things they agree on are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and that he was executed under Pontius Pilate.

Here are the references...
Quote:Historical Jesus refers to scholarly reconstructions of the life of Jesus,[3][4][5] based on critical methods including critical analysis of gospel texts as the primary source for his biography, along with consideration of the historical and cultural context in which he lived.[3][4][6] These reconstructions accept that Jesus existed,[7][8][9][10] although scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the accounts of his life, and the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[11][12][13][14]




Historical elements
Existence

Most contemporary scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and most biblical scholars and classical historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[7][9][10][30][31][32] We have no indication that writers in antiquity who opposed Christianity questioned the existence of Jesus.[33][34] There is, however, widespread disagreement among scholars on the details of the life of Jesus mentioned in the gospel narratives, and on the meaning of his teachings.[14] Scholars differ on the historicity of specific episodes described in the Biblical accounts of Jesus,[14] and historians tend to look upon supernatural or miraculous claims about Jesus as questions of faith, rather than historical fact.[35]




7.In a 2011 review of the state of modern scholarship, Bart Ehrman (a secular agnostic) wrote: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees" B. Ehrman, 2011 Forged : writing in the name of God ISBN 978-0-06-207863-6. page 285
9.Michael Grant (a classicist) states that "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." in Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels by Micjhael Grant 2004 ISBN 1898799881 page 200
10.Richard A. Burridge states: "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church’s imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more." in Jesus Now and Then by Richard A. Burridge and Graham Gould (Apr 1, 2004) ISBN 0802809774 page 34
11.Jesus Remembered by James D. G. Dunn 2003 ISBN 0-8028-3931-2 page 339 states of baptism and crucifixion that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent".
12.Prophet and Teacher: An Introduction to the Historical Jesus by William R. Herzog (4 Jul 2005) ISBN 0664225284 pages 1-6
13.Crossan, John Dominic (1995). Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography. HarperOne. p. 145. ISBN 0-06-061662-8. "That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus ... agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact.
14."Jesus as a Figure in History: How Modern Historians View the Man from Galilee by Mark Allan Powell 1998 ISBN 0-664-25703-8 pages 168–173
The Jesus Quest: The Third Search for the Jew of Nazareth
30.Robert E. Van Voorst Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence Eerdmans Publishing, 2000. ISBN 0-8028-4368-9 page 16 states: "biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of non-existence of Jesus as effectively refuted"
31.James D. G. Dunn "Paul's understanding of the death of Jesus" in Sacrifice and Redemption edited by S. W. Sykes (Dec 3, 2007) Cambridge University Press ISBN 052104460X pages 35-36 states that the theories of non-existence of Jesus are "a thoroughly dead thesis"
32.The Gospels and Jesus by Graham Stanton, 1989 ISBN 0192132415 Oxford University Press, page 145 states : "Today nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed".




So, the question is, why do you believe your expert, Richard Carrier, when he disagrees with a consensus of experts in the field?

In your opinion, what is his strongest argument?

Go fuck your self you lying immoral piece of shit. You can not expect to have a reasonable debate if you intentionally and maliciously fabricate other peoples positions in an attempt to make your self feel clever (your not) or because you don't have an actual response (you don't). You are guilty of multiple fallacies, dishonorable conduct, out right lies, and show a propensity for, and a giddy eagerness to, molest the truth when you don't have an argument or you don't get your way.

You are a fucking con artist and lier with no interest in discovering the truth, so kindly fuck yourself with a claymore you cunt. You don't deserve to be part of any conversation.

Your website is black text on a white background. It's shit, get a different hobby.

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like WhiskeyDebates's post
09-10-2014, 03:54 PM
RE: Is Richard Carrier Your Expert? Can You Explain?
Quote: based on critical methods including critical analysis of gospel texts as the primary source for his biography

The same fucking bullshit over and over.

I can produce a biography for Luke Skywalker by reading Star Wars or Scarlett O'Hara by reading Gone With The Wind.

They are still fucking FICTION. You do know what "fiction" means, right?

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-10-2014, 03:56 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2014 04:03 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Is Richard Carrier Your Expert? Can You Explain?
(09-10-2014 06:26 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  I've been talking about how I came across the fact that there is a consensus. A majority of experts in the field of ancient history accept that Jesus did exist. That he was indeed a historical figure.. Now, the only things they agree on are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and that he was executed under Pontius Pilate.

Here are the references...
Quote:Historical Jesus refers to scholarly reconstructions of the life of Jesus,[3][4][5] based on critical methods including critical analysis of gospel texts as the primary source for his biography, along with consideration of the historical and cultural context in which he lived.[3][4][6] These reconstructions accept that Jesus existed,[7][8][9][10] although scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the accounts of his life, and the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[11][12][13][14]




Historical elements
Existence

Most contemporary scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and most biblical scholars and classical historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[7][9][10][30][31][32] We have no indication that writers in antiquity who opposed Christianity questioned the existence of Jesus.[33][34] There is, however, widespread disagreement among scholars on the details of the life of Jesus mentioned in the gospel narratives, and on the meaning of his teachings.[14] Scholars differ on the historicity of specific episodes described in the Biblical accounts of Jesus,[14] and historians tend to look upon supernatural or miraculous claims about Jesus as questions of faith, rather than historical fact.[35]




7.In a 2011 review of the state of modern scholarship, Bart Ehrman (a secular agnostic) wrote: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees" B. Ehrman, 2011 Forged : writing in the name of God ISBN 978-0-06-207863-6. page 285
9.Michael Grant (a classicist) states that "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." in Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels by Micjhael Grant 2004 ISBN 1898799881 page 200
10.Richard A. Burridge states: "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church’s imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more." in Jesus Now and Then by Richard A. Burridge and Graham Gould (Apr 1, 2004) ISBN 0802809774 page 34
11.Jesus Remembered by James D. G. Dunn 2003 ISBN 0-8028-3931-2 page 339 states of baptism and crucifixion that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent".
12.Prophet and Teacher: An Introduction to the Historical Jesus by William R. Herzog (4 Jul 2005) ISBN 0664225284 pages 1-6
13.Crossan, John Dominic (1995). Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography. HarperOne. p. 145. ISBN 0-06-061662-8. "That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus ... agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact.
14."Jesus as a Figure in History: How Modern Historians View the Man from Galilee by Mark Allan Powell 1998 ISBN 0-664-25703-8 pages 168–173
The Jesus Quest: The Third Search for the Jew of Nazareth
30.Robert E. Van Voorst Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence Eerdmans Publishing, 2000. ISBN 0-8028-4368-9 page 16 states: "biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of non-existence of Jesus as effectively refuted"
31.James D. G. Dunn "Paul's understanding of the death of Jesus" in Sacrifice and Redemption edited by S. W. Sykes (Dec 3, 2007) Cambridge University Press ISBN 052104460X pages 35-36 states that the theories of non-existence of Jesus are "a thoroughly dead thesis"
32.The Gospels and Jesus by Graham Stanton, 1989 ISBN 0192132415 Oxford University Press, page 145 states : "Today nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed".




So, the question is, why do you believe your expert, Richard Carrier, when he disagrees with a consensus of experts in the field?

In your opinion, what is his strongest argument?

I just got his book, historicity of jesus, and I am only on chapter 2.

You must remember however, the majority do not always have the right position. As information becomes available, experts shift their perspective. In the 70s when (cant remember their names) a few scholars came forth and said that the OT was a fabrication by Judaen priests, and that moses didn't really exist. At the time the majority thought otherwise and they were ridiculed...thirty years later and every scholar pretty much accepts that position. It will take time to see how the peer reviews and discussion pans out....I am never closed minded to new information, that is usually reserved by creationists.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes goodwithoutgod's post
09-10-2014, 03:57 PM
RE: Is Richard Carrier Your Expert? Can You Explain?
(09-10-2014 06:59 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(09-10-2014 06:51 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  Why don't you tell me in your own words what his strongest argument is... and if you think for yourself... why do you need Carrier at all?

Wrong.
More intellectual dishonesty.
No one said they "need" Carrier.
All I asked is for YOU to discuss ONE of his points.
You can't. You know NOTHING of the actually issues.
All you can do is make your ad populum and argument from authority.
Obviously you don't even KNOW what he even discusses.
Now I think you never even really listened to one of his lectures.

But what you have done by demonstrating you are unable to discuss the issues at hand, is that YOU NEED your pathetic list of (mostly) religious "experts".

BTW, I ran your web-site list through the plagiarism software I have access to in my department out East.
This is where you got it, and you never once gave credit to the Wiki author of this bibliography. Here is where you copy/pasted it from, as though it were your own work :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

"Robert M. Price (a former fundamentalist apologist turned atheist who says the existence of Jesus cannot be ruled out, but is less probable than non-existence) agrees that this perspective runs against the views of the majority of scholars: Robert M. Price "Jesus at the Vanishing Point" in The Historical Jesus: Five Views edited by James K. Beilby & Paul Rhodes Eddy, 2009 InterVarsity, ISBN 028106329X page 61
Michael Grant (a classicist) states that "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." in Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels by Michael Grant 2004 ISBN 1898799881 page 200
Richard A. Burridge states: "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church’s imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more." in Jesus Now and Then by Richard A. Burridge and Graham Gould (Apr 1, 2004) ISBN 0802809774 page 34
Jesus Remembered by James D. G. Dunn 2003 ISBN 0-8028-3931-2 page 339 states of baptism and crucifixion that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent".
Prophet and Teacher: An Introduction to the Historical Jesus by William R. Herzog (Jul 4, 2005) ISBN 0664225284 pages 1–6
Crossan, John Dominic (1995). Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography. HarperOne. p. 145. ISBN 0-06-061662-8. "That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus ... agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact."
Akenson, Donald (1998). Surpassing wonder: the invention of the Bible and the Talmuds. University of Chicago Press. pp. 539–555. ISBN 978-0-226-01073-1. Retrieved Jan 8, 2011. "... The point I shall argue below is that, the agreed evidentiary practices of the historians of Yeshua, despite their best efforts, have not been those of sound historical practice ..."
Robert E. Van Voorst Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence Eerdmans Publishing, 2000. ISBN 0-8028-4368-9 p. 16, Referring to G.A. Wells: "The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted"
The Cambridge companion to Jesus by Markus N. A. Bockmuehl 2001 Cambridge University Press ISBN 978-0-521-79678-1 pages 123–124. Page 124 state that the "farfetched theories that Jesus' existence was a Christian invention are highly implausible."
Powell, Mark Allan (1998). Jesus as a figure in history: how modern historians view the man from Galilee. Louisville, KY: Westminster John Knox Press. p. 168. ISBN 978-0-664-25703-3.
Jesus in history, thought, and culture: an encyclopedia, Volume 1 by James Leslie Houlden 2003 ISBN 1-57607-856-6-page 660
Van Voorst (2000) p. 14
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/historicity
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defini...istoricity
Wandersee, J. H. (1992), The historicality of cognition: Implications for science education research. J. Res. Sci. Teach., 29: 423–434. doi: 10.1002/tea.3660290409
Harre, R., & Moghaddam, F.M. (2006). Historicity, social psychology, and change. In Rockmore, T. & Margolis, J. (Eds.), History, historicity, and science (pp. 94–120). London: Ashgate Publishing Limited., [1]
William J. Hamblin, professor of history at Brigham Young University. Two part arti " ... etc

I likes when you swing the knowledge stick Yes

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-10-2014, 04:00 PM
RE: Is Richard Carrier Your Expert? Can You Explain?
(09-10-2014 07:06 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  
(09-10-2014 06:59 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I'm afraid to tell you what I believe to be Carrier's best argument... what if you can defeat it?

^fixed that for you..

don't be skeered. I'm not that smart... plus, he's bound to be right about somethings... isn't he?

I agree, you don't appear to be very smart. Maybe you can actually provide a position, or enter a serious one on one debate, whatcha scared of? ah, I know, public intellectual flogging can be intimidating, continue on with your argument from popularity and stealing of other's work while presenting it as your own. well done. Let me know when you want to be broke down like a stack of dominoes, I offer that service free of charge at your earliest convenience.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes goodwithoutgod's post
09-10-2014, 04:11 PM
RE: Is Richard Carrier Your Expert? Can You Explain?
(09-10-2014 02:56 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Your website is black text on a white background. It's shit, get a different hobby.

I'm not defending what's-his-name by any means, but what does this comment mean? A lot of websites (including this one) are "black text on a white background". What exactly is wrong with that? (I'm too lazy to actually go to his website.)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: