Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
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09-12-2014, 08:33 AM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 08:06 AM)unfogged Wrote:  You can attribute anything you like to yourself. Your god can call himself benevolent in it strokes his ego. The question is whether or not we can reasonably include benevolence, particularly omnibenevolence, in our list of attributes of such a creator.

Ah, yes, based solely on the existence of suffering and evil, I can't reasonably conclude that the computer programmer, or god, is benevolent, or omnibenvllent, and can't conclude that he is not these things either. To borrow an atheists phrase, based solely on this, i merely lack a belief.

Would you also agree with this? That you can't make a moral judgement on the creator, whether he's benevolent, or not based exclusively on the existence of such things in his created world?
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09-12-2014, 08:42 AM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
I'm so bored with this thread, now.

The 'morality' question was settled on this forum long ago.

:yawn:

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09-12-2014, 08:44 AM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 08:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Christianity doesn't recognize the problem of evil, stated as the existence of evil negates benevolence.

Interesting that you continually rephrase everything to try to support your view. You are utterly dishonest in how you argue. Christianity has provided theodicies for centuries precisely because they recognize the problem of evil and, like you, are desperate to redefine terms and find other ways to sweep it under the rug.

Quote:There is no issue for me, it's only an issue for you, and your definition and standard of benevolence.

Well sure, when you dishonestly redefine benevolence to not mean what it means to anybody not trying to cover up the gaping holes in their beliefs you can safely ignore the problem.

Quote:No, it's all the same, plenty of atheists know this as well. You can dress up morality all you like, but the end of the day for a moral relativist, good is no different than a personal preference.

I agree with that but that's because moral relativism has a specific meaning. I am not a moral relativist thought and, in my experience, very few atheists are. Personal preference and moral good often align for me but they are quite distinct. As as been said many times, moral good is determined by a rational determination of the benefits and harms of the act in question. It is simple in theory although it can be complicated in practice. It takes thought.

Quote:The only reason folks such as yourself are blind to this, because you so emotionally attached to the idea of objective good and evil, that you can't part with it.

Nice deflection. I do not believe there is any objective good or evil, that's usually the theistic position. I consider it to be an irrational position.

Quote:If you were able to set aside your emotional attachments, this would be fairly obvious.

Back at ya

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09-12-2014, 08:47 AM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 08:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-12-2014 08:06 AM)unfogged Wrote:  You can attribute anything you like to yourself. Your god can call himself benevolent in it strokes his ego. The question is whether or not we can reasonably include benevolence, particularly omnibenevolence, in our list of attributes of such a creator.

Ah, yes, based solely on the existence of suffering and evil, I can't reasonably conclude that the computer programmer, or god, is benevolent, or omnibenvllent, and can't conclude that he is not these things either. To borrow an atheists phrase, based solely on this, i merely lack a belief.

Would you also agree with this? That you can't make a moral judgement on the creator, whether he's benevolent, or not based exclusively on the existence of such things in his created world?

No, I could not disagree more. Something along the lines of "by their fruits you shall know them". (never said that the bible didn't have ANY truths in it :cupSmile

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09-12-2014, 08:51 AM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 08:33 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  If you're actually going to try to defend Omnibenevolence and not just benevolence, you are at a shockingly dismissive state.

He keeps vacillating between benevolence, omnibenevolence, and good and between evil, suffering, and pointless suffering. The terms change in order to be able to make responses that sound good but don't actually address the same thing. It's like trying to nail jello. Whatever definition or term allows god to exist is the right one apparently.

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09-12-2014, 09:03 AM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 08:47 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-12-2014 08:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Ah, yes, based solely on the existence of suffering and evil, I can't reasonably conclude that the computer programmer, or god, is benevolent, or omnibenvllent, and can't conclude that he is not these things either. To borrow an atheists phrase, based solely on this, i merely lack a belief.

Would you also agree with this? That you can't make a moral judgement on the creator, whether he's benevolent, or not based exclusively on the existence of such things in his created world?

No, I could not disagree more. Something along the lines of "by their fruits you shall know them". (never said that the bible didn't have ANY truths in it :cupSmile

Well, then we're left with a difference of opinion. You believe a moral judgement can be made, while i believe it can't. I merely lack a belief based exclusively on this, while you possess one, and the difference rather than being one of factual errors, is just a difference of opinion.
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09-12-2014, 09:12 AM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 08:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  There is no issue for me, it's only an issue for you, and your definition and standard of benevolence.

Since 'benevolent' is a human concept, we get to define what benevolence is. And by every rational definition, a god who allows pointless suffering is not benevolent.

That you try to redefine benevolent to suit yourself is utterly dishonest. You should be ashamed of yourself.

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09-12-2014, 09:15 AM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 08:51 AM)unfogged Wrote:  He keeps vacillating between benevolence, omnibenevolence, and good and between evil, suffering, and pointless suffering. The terms change in order to be able to make responses that sound good but don't actually address the same thing. It's like trying to nail jello. Whatever definition or term allows god to exist is the right one apparently.

Please, my vacillating, has been for no other reason than sheer laziness, and arguing about the difference between suffering, pointless suffering, very benevolent, omnibenevolent, benevolent, is whole separate rabbit hole, which is somewhat irrelevant to the points being made.

You can substitute whatever terms you like in anything I've said, but my points still stand.
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09-12-2014, 09:20 AM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 09:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  Since 'benevolent' is a human concept, we get to define what benevolence is. And by every rational definition, a god who allows pointless suffering is not benevolent.

Is it a subjective concept? Is it a relative concept, like moral relativism?

Who is the "we" here, is it just you and your band of atheists? The same folks who think the only rational view, is to lack a belief in God?
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09-12-2014, 09:42 AM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
When you hold to a meta-ethical moral relativism, as defined by wikipedia as " meta-ethical moral relativism holds that in such (moral) disagreements, nobody is objectively right or wrong, you're unable to say that a person who views the existence of meaningless suffering as not negating benevolence, as objectively wrong.

This should be a simple enough point, but why are folks here unable to recognize this?
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