Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
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09-12-2014, 02:01 PM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 01:48 PM)DLJ Wrote:  There are objectively right and wrong answers... depending on the questions. But not right or wrong cultures, ethics or behaviours.

So these objectively wrong answers, may not be wrong for different cultures, ethics or behaviors?
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09-12-2014, 02:08 PM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 01:48 PM)DLJ Wrote:  So, you are saying that you are a Relativist?

No. I'm using a card from your play book, arguing from the position of a lack of belief. That I see no valid reason, proof, or evidence to accepts that benevolence of even a hypothetical god is negated by meaningless suffering.
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09-12-2014, 02:13 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2014 02:25 PM by tear151.)
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 02:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-12-2014 01:48 PM)DLJ Wrote:  So, you are saying that you are a Relativist?

No. I'm using a card from your play book, arguing from the position of a lack of belief. That I see no valid reason, proof, or evidence to accepts that benevolence of even a hypothetical god is negated by meaningless suffering.

You are a theist right? I'm going to throw this argument at you

Let God of the bible exist

Let God be omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omnipotent

If God knows all his holy word is true

God's holy word claims that suffering is bad

God is supposed to be all good

If God does not correct suffering then he is not by his own definition Good

God has not corrected suffering

Therefore God is immoral by his own standard for not helping the poor as jesus demands

If God is immoral by his own standard, then God is not omnibenevolent, or he is inconsistent, which means the bible can't be reliable since he is either a liar or not omniscient and made an error.

If God is not omnibenevolent by his own standards, then the bible is not necessarily completely true, as we've lost the guarantee he isn't a liar

Thus we have no Guarantee that God is omnipotent or omniscient as we have no guarantee of truth anymore

Therefore even if the god of the Bible exists, the bible can't be trusted as objective fact.

Thus even if God exists, we have no reason to believe God exists and the other assumptions refute themselves.

The assumptions are therefore mutually exclusive

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09-12-2014, 03:03 PM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 02:13 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(09-12-2014 02:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No. I'm using a card from your play book, arguing from the position of a lack of belief. That I see no valid reason, proof, or evidence to accepts that benevolence of even a hypothetical god is negated by meaningless suffering.

You are a theist right? I'm going to throw this argument at you

Let God of the bible exist

Let God be omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omnipotent

If God knows all his holy word is true

God's holy word claims that suffering is bad

God is supposed to be all good

If God does not correct suffering then he is not by his own definition Good

God has not corrected suffering

Therefore God is immoral by his own standard for not helping the poor as jesus demands

If God is immoral by his own standard, then God is not omnibenevolent, or he is inconsistent, which means the bible can't be reliable since he is either a liar or not omniscient and made an error.

If God is not omnibenevolent by his own standards, then the bible is not necessarily completely true, as we've lost the guarantee he isn't a liar

Thus we have no Guarantee that God is omnipotent or omniscient as we have no guarantee of truth anymore

Therefore even if the god of the Bible exists, the bible can't be trusted as objective fact.

Thus even if God exists, we have no reason to believe God exists and the other assumptions refute themselves.

The assumptions are therefore mutually exclusive

So much garbage in there, I'm not sure what I am suppose to with it? It seems to be implying that I subscribe to some form of fundie evangelism, which I'm supposed to be defending. That I view the bible as some sort of biography about the life of God, or that morality comes from reading some old ass book.
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09-12-2014, 03:08 PM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 03:03 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-12-2014 02:13 PM)tear151 Wrote:  You are a theist right? I'm going to throw this argument at you

Let God of the bible exist

Let God be omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omnipotent

If God knows all his holy word is true

God's holy word claims that suffering is bad

God is supposed to be all good

If God does not correct suffering then he is not by his own definition Good

God has not corrected suffering

Therefore God is immoral by his own standard for not helping the poor as jesus demands

If God is immoral by his own standard, then God is not omnibenevolent, or he is inconsistent, which means the bible can't be reliable since he is either a liar or not omniscient and made an error.

If God is not omnibenevolent by his own standards, then the bible is not necessarily completely true, as we've lost the guarantee he isn't a liar

Thus we have no Guarantee that God is omnipotent or omniscient as we have no guarantee of truth anymore

Therefore even if the god of the Bible exists, the bible can't be trusted as objective fact.

Thus even if God exists, we have no reason to believe God exists and the other assumptions refute themselves.

The assumptions are therefore mutually exclusive

So much garbage in there, I'm not sure what I am suppose to with it? It seems to be implying that I subscribe to some form of fundie evangelism, which I'm supposed to be defending. That I view the bible as some sort of biography about the life of God, or that morality comes from reading some old ass book.

There's no fundamentalism there, what exactly is wrong with the reasoning? Unless you are a deist... You're subjectivist views seem incompatible with a book that's so big on the opposite.

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09-12-2014, 03:11 PM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 01:31 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Well, I'm not one making a positive claim, so I don't want anyone shifting the burden of proof on to me. I'm interested in addressing the validity of those making a positive statement, such as meaningless suffering negates benevolence. I enjoy the shoe on the other foot, pressing unbelievers to think of their beliefs, to explore the basis, and reasoning, and evidence for it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "meaningless suffering negates benevolence". An omnibenevolent god would not create or operate a system in which meaningless suffering is permitted.

Quote:
Quote:You set up objective morals and moral relativism as the only 2 options but there are others. Consequentialism and situational ethics play a part in my consideration of right and wrong.

There are only two options, there are various iterations of these options, such as consequentialism and situational ethics. But they are just different dresses on these two options. I have yet to see a sound argument for a third option.

I do not see how either of those falls under either objective morals or moral relativism. As a quick example, honor killings in Islam are not wrong because they violate any objective "thou shalt not kill" standard, nor are they right because that culture deems them to be appropriate.

Quote:So you think it's because some things can be shown to be objectively harmful, that this negates moral relativism?

I'm not convinced that we are using the term moral relativism in the same way. You have also changed what I said from "some practices are objectively more harmful than others in the same circumstances".

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09-12-2014, 03:22 PM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 03:08 PM)tear151 Wrote:  There's no fundamentalism there, what exactly is wrong with the reasoning? Unless you are a deist... You're subjectivist views seem incompatible with a book that's so big on the opposite.

Well, for one thing all of the statements are vague and incomplete. What sort of suffering does the god character in the bible believe is bad. Do the moral standard of his creation, apply to him as well. Is a God seen as loving or benevolent as the result of a series of actions, or his being, is his love evident by existence itself, or something he offers existence, like giving us his son. yada, yada.

But let's just play along, as if I never read the bible, and paying the problems I mentioned no mind. We'll also assume the understanding you presented in your argument is all true by default, particularly after you clarified a point or two, than sure I guess we can say the reasoning holds up.
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09-12-2014, 03:27 PM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
^It's almost like the bible isn't a reliable source of information.

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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09-12-2014, 03:30 PM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 03:11 PM)unfogged Wrote:  . As a quick example, honor killings in Islam are not wrong because they violate any objective "thou shalt not kill" standard, nor are they right because that culture deems them to be appropriate.

Why is it objectively wrong then?

Is it objectively wrong for the same reasons, as you put it for "An omnibenevolent god would not create or operate a system in which meaningless suffering is permitted. "?

Quote:I'm not convinced that we are using the term moral relativism in the same way. You have also changed what I said from "some practices are objectively more harmful than others in the same circumstances".

Because it seemed cumbersome, it's not very clear if what your saying here, is that since some practices are objectively more harmful than others in the same circumstances, this means they are moral wrong? I'm not too sure if your attempting to equivocate one form objectively to another, objective harm to objective immorality.
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09-12-2014, 03:35 PM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 03:27 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  ^It's almost like the bible isn't a reliable source of information.

I guess it would depend on what sort of information you were looking for. If you're looking for a reliable source on how old the world is, probably not. If you're wondering how the ancient hebrews, grappled with the question of god and meaning over the course of hundreds of year, how that meaning shifted, and evolved, it's a fairly reliable source.
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