Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
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09-12-2014, 03:47 PM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
^That's the first entirely honest, sensible statement you've made in a while.

I dig it.

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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09-12-2014, 04:31 PM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 03:30 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:I'm not convinced that we are using the term moral relativism in the same way. You have also changed what I said from "some practices are objectively more harmful than others in the same circumstances".

Because it seemed cumbersome, it's not very clear if what your saying here, is that since some practices are objectively more harmful than others in the same circumstances, this means they are moral wrong?

No, it means one is more harmful than the other and that places them relative to each other along the moral scale.

Quote:I'm not too sure if your attempting to equivocate one form objectively to another, objective harm to objective immorality.

I don't accept that there is an objective morality, or immorality. I do accept that specific actions can be evaluated for the harm they cause.

Frankly, I'm no longer interested in continuing this discussion. It has finally gotten through to me that you are approaching this from a disinterested perspective to examine the various philosophies objectively Big Grin. That's fine, more power to you if that's what you enjoy. I'm much more interested in discussing specific views that people actually hold so we are talking at cross-purposes and I think it is causing a lot of frustration on both sides.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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09-12-2014, 04:39 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2014 07:53 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 07:54 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-12-2014 07:24 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  110 % false. Nice try. Liar. We have defined it as CHILDREN SUFFERING.
I asked if YOU want children to suffer.
If you don't then it is "mutually binding", (and no one accepted that it HAS to be "mutually binding".)

Is there NO END to the mental gymnastics you religious fools will go to to attemot to make a non-existent deity look reasonable ?


No, benevolence in reference to God, or world creator, has been defined as not allowing meaningless suffering to exist. And this is what I don't agree with.

In this sense you can say that I created a world, a world that I desired to exist, in which suffering, meaningless and otherwise, existed. That I in fact desired this total portrait of the world, so in some sense you can say I desired suffering to exist, but I also desired love to exist, happiness to exist as well.

I can do this, without picturing myself as malevolent, or excluding the attribute of benevolence to me, to see myself as an author, who created a world of profound and monstrous beauty, tragic and hopeful, comprehendible and mysterious.

Nice try. We're not talking about how a delusional person could picture himself, and projecting that onto a god. I just showed you meaningless suffering, and you can't give a straight answer.

You did create your delusional little world, where any dishonest excuse flys, apparently.

I see you can see white, and call it black.

Get help.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-12-2014, 05:06 PM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 03:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-12-2014 03:08 PM)tear151 Wrote:  There's no fundamentalism there, what exactly is wrong with the reasoning? Unless you are a deist... You're subjectivist views seem incompatible with a book that's so big on the opposite.

Well, for one thing all of the statements are vague and incomplete. What sort of suffering does the god character in the bible believe is bad. Do the moral standard of his creation, apply to him as well. Is a God seen as loving or benevolent as the result of a series of actions, or his being, is his love evident by existence itself, or something he offers existence, like giving us his son. yada, yada.

But let's just play along, as if I never read the bible, and paying the problems I mentioned no mind. We'll also assume the understanding you presented in your argument is all true by default, particularly after you clarified a point or two, than sure I guess we can say the reasoning holds up.

If God ignores his own system, then he is a hypocrite

The old testament denounces hypocrites

God demands not to covett things

Gid desribes himself as a jealous god who covets the congregations of idols

God says not to kill

He does

Theres a lot more here

Him not having stopped suffering from happening goes against the preachings of the son, who may I remind you was still god.

"A witty quote means nothing"
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09-12-2014, 05:18 PM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 05:06 PM)tear151 Wrote:  If God ignores his own system, then he is a hypocrite

Yes, the same way the State that prohibits it's citizen from taking the law into their own hands, is a hypocrite for taking the law into it's own hands. Or a State that prohibits its citizens from possessing semi-automatic weapons, is a hypocrite for possessing such weapons itself.

Or a man who prohibits his dog from sitting on the sofa, is hypocrite for sitting on the sofa himself.
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09-12-2014, 05:24 PM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 05:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-12-2014 05:06 PM)tear151 Wrote:  If God ignores his own system, then he is a hypocrite

Yes, the same way the State that prohibits it's citizen from taking the law into their own hands, is a hypocrite for taking the law into it's own hands. Or a State that prohibits its citizens from possessing semi-automatic weapons, is a hypocrite for possessing such weapons itself.

Or a man who prohibits his dog from sitting on the sofa, is hypocrite for sitting on the sofa himself.

If God is the master and the human is the dog, then the god claims superiority to the humans, to claim ownership of the humans, how arrogant, jesus wouldnt aplrove approve.

On top of that youve shifted the definition of benevolent to "anything god does", thats meaningless.

"A witty quote means nothing"
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09-12-2014, 05:31 PM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 05:24 PM)tear151 Wrote:  If God is the master and the human is the dog, then the god claims superiority to the humans, to claim ownership of the humans, how arrogant

So if this is in fact the case, then God wouldn't be a hypocrite, he would just be arrogant?

Quote:On top of that youve shifted the definition of benevolent to "anything god does", thats meaningless.

I did no such thing, since I don't recall every defining what I believe benevolence is here.
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09-12-2014, 05:40 PM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 05:31 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-12-2014 05:24 PM)tear151 Wrote:  If God is the master and the human is the dog, then the god claims superiority to the humans, to claim ownership of the humans, how arrogant

So if this is in fact the case, then God wouldn't be a hypocrite, he would just be arrogant?

Quote:On top of that youve shifted the definition of benevolent to "anything god does", thats meaningless.

I did no such thing, since I don't recall every defining what I believe benevolence is here.

And arrogance is biblically frowned upon, if you say god doesnt have to follow his own objective system to omnibenevolentbthere arent many definitions left.

"A witty quote means nothing"
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09-12-2014, 05:41 PM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 05:31 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-12-2014 05:24 PM)tear151 Wrote:  On top of that youve shifted the definition of benevolent to "anything god does", thats meaningless.

I did no such thing, since I don't recall every defining what I believe benevolence is here.


Which is still a problem and has been pointed out repeatedly. (Not just by me.)

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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09-12-2014, 06:01 PM
RE: Is Suffering Compatible With God's Existence?
(09-12-2014 07:37 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 05:15 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  He then argues a strawman that since we are all moral relativists...
You seem to have it all wrong. The moral relativist...
And you continue to argue the strawman of moral relativism. Who here is a moral relativist in the sense you are describing?

(09-12-2014 07:37 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-12-2014 05:15 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  The theist's view of benevolence is unfalsifiable. No matter how evil god's act is, it must be good. It must be benevolent. Because that's what the theist wants to believe. And anyway: Old Book says it, so it must be true.
No, if could agree on a standard of good, than we could say that this person, or this god doesn't meet it. The problem is we don't agree on this standard. Folks here hold a standard that meaningless suffering negates benevolence, while theist don't.
In fact this view is one I would equally apply to God, or some brilliant computer programmer who was able to replicate human existence in a computer program. If meaningless suffering existed in this program of his, I wouldn't be able to accuse the programmer of not being benevolent on this alone.
After all... whatever the programmer does is good and benevolent. He cares for his objects, even the ones he destroys. He cares for his processes, even the ones he kills. His merciless actions are good and kind. Old Source Code says so.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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