Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
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22-04-2014, 09:04 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 08:14 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  As long as people exist on this earth, belief in the transcendant will be a fact of reality.

Scientism will never trump belief in the transcendant. Since the beginning of recorded history humanity as a whole has believed in the transcendant.

Why?

I wager it is because belief in the transcendant is natural for us. Natural in the same sense that it is natural for humans to want to feel wanted and loved and special. Natutal in the sense that a cow eats grass and bears hibernate in the winter. Its in their nature to do those things like it is in our nature to lift our eyes unto the heavens and ask: how? why? does all that exists exist? Humanity for the most part has known better than to believe it is just some random accident.

"... belief in the transcendant ..." is a cop out. It's easy, no further thinking required. Swallow the first line of bullshit that comes along, and you're done.

"... belief in the transcendant ..." = ignorance.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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22-04-2014, 09:08 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 08:14 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  As long as people exist on this earth, belief in the transcendant will be a fact of reality.

Scientism will never trump belief in the transcendant. Since the beginning of recorded history humanity as a whole has believed in the transcendant.

Why?

I wager it is because belief in the transcendant is natural for us. Natural in the same sense that it is natural for humans to want to feel wanted and loved and special. Natutal in the sense that a cow eats grass and bears hibernate in the winter. Its in their nature to do those things like it is in our nature to lift our eyes unto the heavens and ask: how? why? does all that exists exist? Humanity for the most part has known better than to believe it is just some random accident.

Belief in the transcendent will (likely) never trump science. Since the beginning of recorded history, there's been no evidence that transcendent things even exist.

Other than that, I'll grant you almost everything you say about the belief in the transcendent. People do seem predisposed to coming up with simple ways to explain things they don't understand. Then again, so do pigeons in a Skinner-box.
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22-04-2014, 09:14 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
GWB was President twice.

Enough said.

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I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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22-04-2014, 09:15 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 08:46 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 08:45 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  where is the naturalistic fallacy? where is the strawman?

Science will never trump "belief in the transcendent" because it is "natural".

Humanity has "known better" than to believe "just some random accident".

Several things to note:

1. I said scientism, not science.
2. The naturalistic fallacy is associated with ethical arguments. Since I have not spoken about ethics, your charge is inappropriate.
3. My summation of the universe being a random accident is not a strawman. On a purely naturistic understanding of the cosmos it exists as a result of natural forces and processes acting on matter over a period of time. Period. There is no rhyme or reason behind it. It was not planned to be the way it is or made or created to be the way it is for any specific purpose or end. It just exists as Bertrand Russell would have said as an accidental collocation of atoms.

And to reiterate, the majority of people now as well as throughout all of history have not seen the universe as some sort of result of natural forces acting on matter over time.
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22-04-2014, 09:51 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 07:48 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  I can't help but think that some of it is a failure of our education system, rather than belief system taking over.

This is what I understand to be true, every time. It is so evident that the better the education in a country the more advanced, healthy and prosperous. USA's education has declined in unfathomable amounts it is quite horrifying to view from the outside looking in. My province is making a step in that direction every year and it terrifies me. I don't want to go back to the dark ages. Sad


(22-04-2014 08:14 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  As long as people exist on this earth, belief in the transcendant will be a fact of reality.

Scientism will never trump belief in the transcendant. Since the beginning of recorded history humanity as a whole has believed in the transcendant.

Space exploration FTW! Big Grin


(22-04-2014 08:14 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Why?

I wager it is because belief in the transcendant is natural for us. Natural in the same sense that it is natural for humans to want to feel wanted and loved and special. Natutal in the sense that a cow eats grass and bears hibernate in the winter. Its in their nature to do those things like it is in our nature to lift our eyes unto the heavens and ask: how? why? does all that exists exist? Humanity for the most part has known better than to believe it is just some random accident.

It is natural, God-gene. But we DO know better now... at least some of us. You know, with knowledge and such. Ed-ja-ma-cation and things.
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22-04-2014, 09:59 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 07:44 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I think in a certain sense, facts can argue against faith and show a particular belief to be false. I say this as a Christian.

For example, if Christ did not rise bodily from the dead on the Sunday following His crucifixion, then this fact would argue against the belief in His resurrection.

Actually it doesn't at all. Read Dr. Bernard Brandon Scott's (Professor of New Testament at the Tulsa Seminary) "The Trouble with Resurrection". In fact that fundamentalist "literal" idea probably does that cult more harm than good. Many of the scholars in the Jesus Seminar are Christains, and don't buy into the crap of a "literal" (physical) resurrection. In it's context in Jewish Apocalyptic hero "exaltation", the Presentist nonsense of a literal resurrection, ("raised up") make no sense AT ALL. I see you never studied or read Paul in Greek.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-04-2014, 10:04 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
This is 'Murrica."

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Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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22-04-2014, 10:04 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 07:22 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  The line "facts can't argue against faith" is so true! Just when I thought we were moving in the right direction as belief has been declining. Then again, if you polled our society on how long it takes for the earth to orbit the sun one time, I am sure more than a few would get it wrong. What a stupid, stupid country we are becoming.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/21...84931.html

I'm more optimistic. I would say where trust in science is lost is probably mostly in fundamentalist families, private schools, and home schools. There are plenty of people in the US who do trust science; even many believers. As the facade of religion is gradually peeled away and religion loses its dominance as an "explanation" (and I do believe that will happen eventually), former believers will need somewhere else to turn and science should be the natural choice.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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22-04-2014, 10:08 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 10:04 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 07:22 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  The line "facts can't argue against faith" is so true! Just when I thought we were moving in the right direction as belief has been declining. Then again, if you polled our society on how long it takes for the earth to orbit the sun one time, I am sure more than a few would get it wrong. What a stupid, stupid country we are becoming.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/21...84931.html

I'm more optimistic. I would say where trust in science is lost is probably mostly in fundamentalist families, private schools, and home schools. There are plenty of people in the US who do trust science; even many believers. As the facade of religion is gradually peeled away and religion loses its dominance as an "explanation" (and I do believe that will happen eventually), former believers will need somewhere else to turn and science should be the natural choice.
Sounds good.
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22-04-2014, 10:20 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 07:48 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  I can't help but think that some of it is a failure of our education system, rather than belief system taking over.

maybe that is wishful thinking on my part.....especially the sun revolving around the earth part...I know some whacko YEC'ers and they seem to hold to the idea that the earth revolves around the sun..I don't think I've ever met anyone (even living here in the south) that thinks the earth is center...I'm thinking the result is people just 'not thinking' when they answer survey questions-which seems very American to me.

Even here....many of the quizzes posted lately, some of the questions required some brain power and many people just didn't want to be bothered with thinking about it.

One of the major problems with Americans is their dislike of intelligent people. We celebrate ignorance, admire a simple manly man who acts with conviction but with little brain power. *cough* george bush, cough* Teachers are looked down on, not paid well and and treated as pawns by politicians who love to tinker with the education system every two or four years during re-election season. Teachers on the front line of education, those in the classroom interacting with the students seldom have any say as to what should be taught and how to teach it. It all comes down from school administrators who haven't been in a classroom in years -if ever and politicians who are often ignorant.

Americans have a perception that a highly educated person is a "nerd". An educated person isn't "cool". Someone smart is "socially inept" or just boring to listen to. Most Americans know who Kim Kardashian is but who knows who the latest Nobel Prize winner for chemistry is?

As long as educated people aren't celebrated or admired they won't be listened to and mundane youtube videos of stupid crap will continue to be the height of peoples day. Scientific facts and global warming? Americans are bored by stuff like that.

When scientists start dating supermodels Americans might take interest. Other than that, it's a lost cause.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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