Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
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22-04-2014, 10:27 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 10:20 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 07:48 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  I can't help but think that some of it is a failure of our education system, rather than belief system taking over.

maybe that is wishful thinking on my part.....especially the sun revolving around the earth part...I know some whacko YEC'ers and they seem to hold to the idea that the earth revolves around the sun..I don't think I've ever met anyone (even living here in the south) that thinks the earth is center...I'm thinking the result is people just 'not thinking' when they answer survey questions-which seems very American to me.

Even here....many of the quizzes posted lately, some of the questions required some brain power and many people just didn't want to be bothered with thinking about it.

One of the major problems with Americans is their dislike of intelligent people. We celebrate ignorance, admire a simple manly man who acts with conviction but with little brain power. *cough* george bush, cough* Teachers are looked down on, not paid well and and treated as pawns by politicians who love to tinker with the education system every two or four years during re-election season. Teachers on the front line of education, those in the classroom interacting with the students seldom have any say as to what should be taught and how to teach it. It all comes down from school administrators who haven't been in a classroom in years -if ever and politicians who are often ignorant.

Americans have a perception that a highly educated person is a "nerd". An educated person isn't "cool". Someone smart is "socially inept" or just boring to listen to. Most Americans know who Kim Kardashian is but who knows who the latest Nobel Prize winner for chemistry is?

As long as educated people aren't celebrated or admired they won't be listened to and mundane youtube videos of stupid crap will continue to be the height of peoples day. Scientific facts and global warming? Americans are bored by stuff like that.

When scientists start dating supermodels Americans might take interest. Other than that, it's a lost cause.

Things may be beginning to slowly change. Before gays were taken seriously, or accepted, the only ones portrayed were "comical" and ridiculous. The "Big Bang Theory" (CBS TV) might be the beginning of a change in that pattern for smart people.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-04-2014, 10:48 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
Here is why American education is failing: Texas, California, Florida.

Publishers are profit-driven. They go where the money is flowing.

Most states work on state adoptions. Every few years, some nameless committee somewhere within the state reviews all the textbooks in each subject. They select about 5 for The List. Every public school in the state *must* purchase one of those on The List. Ergo, texts are tailored to each of these very populous states.

In Texas, things are toned down regarding anything controversial or anti-republican.
In California, things go hippee, vegan, new-age, etc.*
In Florida, things go dumber than other states. FL Dumbs Down Standards

And because there aren't that many school children in Iowa or Wyoming (comparatively), they will get warmed-over TX-CA-FL texts. Publishers won't pay to have special texts for that number of kids.

So blame the TX-CA-FL committees.


* I worked on one California program that forbid any instruction on the student's workbook pages. They were to "discover" the mathematical processes.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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22-04-2014, 10:51 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 09:15 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Several things to note:

1. I said scientism, not science.

Any scientific theory the religious person rejects, without regard for established research = Scientism.

(22-04-2014 09:15 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  2. The naturalistic fallacy is associated with ethical arguments. Since I have not spoken about ethics, your charge is inappropriate.


He seems to have meant Appeal to Nature.

(22-04-2014 09:15 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  3. My summation of the universe being a random accident is not a strawman. On a purely naturistic understanding of the cosmos it exists as a result of natural forces and processes acting on matter over a period of time. Period. There is no rhyme or reason behind it. It was not planned to be the way it is or made or created to be the way it is for any specific purpose or end. It just exists as Bertrand Russell would have said as an accidental collocation of atoms.

Except that some in physics have stated the universe is not a random event, but as a natural non random occurrence. Randomness itself is an artificial conceptual device.

(22-04-2014 09:15 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  And to reiterate, the majority of people now as well as throughout all of history have not seen the universe as some sort of result of natural forces acting on matter over time.

Ad Populum

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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22-04-2014, 11:05 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 09:08 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 08:14 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  As long as people exist on this earth, belief in the transcendant will be a fact of reality.

Scientism will never trump belief in the transcendant. Since the beginning of recorded history humanity as a whole has believed in the transcendant.

Why?

I wager it is because belief in the transcendant is natural for us. Natural in the same sense that it is natural for humans to want to feel wanted and loved and special. Natutal in the sense that a cow eats grass and bears hibernate in the winter. Its in their nature to do those things like it is in our nature to lift our eyes unto the heavens and ask: how? why? does all that exists exist? Humanity for the most part has known better than to believe it is just some random accident.

Belief in the transcendent will (likely) never trump science. Since the beginning of recorded history, there's been no evidence that transcendent things even exist.

Other than that, I'll grant you almost everything you say about the belief in the transcendent. People do seem predisposed to coming up with simple ways to explain things they don't understand. Then again, so do pigeons in a Skinner-box.

I never said what you claimed I have. I never said belief in the transcendant will trump science.
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22-04-2014, 11:23 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 11:05 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I never said what you claimed I have. I never said belief in the transcendant will trump science.

I didn't say you said that. I just said it probably won't happen. Although, if you didn't say it, I guess you are assuming that science (or "scientism" as you said) will remain equal with belief in the transcendent. I wouldn't call them equal, either.
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22-04-2014, 11:34 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
Most of you have missed the point of my post. I am not arguing that God exists or that because most people believe in some sort of transcendance that therefore God exists or that because a majority of people believe something that means it is true.

My argument is that belief in God and the transcendant is here to stay. It may be less prevalent in certain areas than others, nevertheless it is here to stay. Why?

Because when humans are faced with the more weighty and more critical questions of life, science really is impotent to answer.
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22-04-2014, 11:44 AM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2014 12:15 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 11:34 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Most of you have missed the point of my post. I am not arguing that God exists or that because most people believe in some sort of transcendance that therefore God exists or that because a majority of people believe something that means it is true.

My argument is that belief in God and the transcendant is here to stay. It may be less prevalent in certain areas than others, nevertheless it is here to stay. Why?

Because when humans are faced with the more weighty and more critical questions of life, science really is impotent to answer.

Nonsense. Assertion is evidence of nothing. It's not even an "augment", it's bald assertion with no evidence to support it.
(Is that what they taught you to say at Biola ?)
"Less prevalent in certain areas ?"
You bet your sweet ass it is. In the best educated places, it's "less prevalent".
When humans are faced with the MOST weighty and critical questions, they go to University Medical Centers, where the Oncologists, Cardiologists, Neurosurgeons, and Emergency Medicine and Trauma Surgeons work all day. If YOU were faced with a "critical" question of life, YOU would turn to science, as would every single one of your hypocritical fundie buddies. YOU would not sit at home and pray.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-04-2014, 11:45 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
Also:

what the shit is scientism?

... this is my signature!
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22-04-2014, 11:49 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 11:45 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Also:

what the shit is scientism?

It's the pejorative word fundie idiots are told to use, to talk about "confidence" in the Scientific Method.
It makes them feel all (snort) philosophical and superior.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-04-2014, 11:54 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 11:44 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 11:34 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Most of you have missed the point of my post. I am not arguing that God exists or that because most people believe in some sort of transcendance that therefore God exists or that because a majority of people believe something that means it is true.

My argument is that belief in God and the transcendant is here to stay. It may be less prevalent in certain areas than others, nevertheless it is here to stay. Why?

Because when humans are faced with the more weighty and more critical questions of life, science really is impotent to answer.

Nonsense. Assertion of evidence of nothing. It's not even an "augment", it's bald assertion with no evidence to support it.
(Is that what they taught you to say at Biola ?)
"Less prevalent in certain areas ?"
You bet your sweet ass it is. In the best educated places, it's "less prevalent".
When humans are faced with the MOST weighty and critical questions, they go to University Medical Centers, where the Oncologists, Cardiologists, Neurosurgeons, and Emergency Medicine and Trauma Surgeons work all day. If YOU were faced with a "critical" question of life, YOU would turn to science, as would every single one of your hypocritical fundie buddies. YOU would not sit at home and pray.

Do you love anyone? A wife? A child? A parent? A beloved friend?
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