Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
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22-04-2014, 04:06 PM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 10:20 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  One of the major problems with Americans is their dislike of intelligent people. We celebrate ignorance, admire a simple manly man who acts with conviction but with little brain power. *cough* george bush, cough* Teachers are looked down on, not paid well and and treated as pawns by politicians who love to tinker with the education system every two or four years during re-election season. Teachers on the front line of education, those in the classroom interacting with the students seldom have any say as to what should be taught and how to teach it. It all comes down from school administrators who haven't been in a classroom in years -if ever and politicians who are often ignorant.

I don't want to get into a political debate in this thread (I'm a card carrying Libertarian), but I want to focus on this specific paragraph as it relates to teachers. If a number of teachers are held in contempt by people, IMHO, it has more to do with the education level of the teachers themselves more so than people not liking the smart people. I'll grant that much of this is anecdotal and based on personal observation, but the kids I saw going into education when I went to school had what I thought was the minimum threshold needed to succed in a university setting in the 90s. I'm sure university life has changed for the worse today based on the increasing number of ridiculous degrees coupled with the influx of even MORE kids into the bachelor/masters/PhD granting institutions that have ZERO business setting foot on those campii. The phrase "those who can, do while those who can't, teach" is not an accident.

Now I think teachers should be treated with respect and acknowledged for what they do. But my experience has shown me that most teachers aren't all that bright. I think those teaching in the high school level are at a higher level than those in elementary ed, but not all of them are sharp people.

What I think happened is that there has been a LACK of focus for many years on pushing the STEM subjects. I think those trends are changing now for the better. But I also think that the one size fits all educational standards foisted on the states by the Feds is a gross mistake. IMHO, the states are the keepers of the education laws. That Kansas needs to focus on for educating their kids may be different than what NY, MA or PA should focus on. Science is science. But more control over education at the state and school level will do much to improve things in lieu of more national standards. They need to teach less topics at much deeper depths than to go a mile wide and an inch in depth on the subjects being taught at schools today.
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22-04-2014, 04:07 PM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2014 04:34 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 07:44 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I think in a certain sense, facts can argue against faith and show a particular belief to be false. I say this as a Christian.

For example, if Christ did not rise bodily from the dead on the Sunday following His crucifixion, then this fact would argue against the belief in His resurrection.

You can't show that such an event occurred. You merely assert it ad hoc on the basis of iron-age goatfuckers' fairy tales.



(22-04-2014 08:14 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  As long as people exist on this earth, belief in the transcendant will be a fact of reality.

You don't know that, and the statistics refute your claim. Fewer and fewer people believe in your superstitions every day. The more people become educated, the less likely they are to buy into your bullshit. You are on the brink of extinction.


Quote:Scientism

What the fuck is THAT supposed to be? Strawman much?


Quote: will never trump belief in the transcendant.

Science and reason already DO trump your superstitions. You simply willfully ignore it.


Quote:Since the beginning of recorded history humanity as a whole has believed in the transcendant.

WHAT "transcendent"? You assert this word with nothing to support it. It doesn't mean ANYTHING until you demonstrate that a "transcendent" exists. Good luck with that.

Quote:`Why?

I wager it is because belief in the transcendant is natural for us.

IGNORANCE is natural to us. We OVERCOME IGNORANCE through skepticism and education. Which you fail to avail yourself to.


Quote: Natural in the same sense that it is natural for humans to want to feel wanted and loved and special. Natutal in the sense that a cow eats grass and bears hibernate in the winter. Its in their nature to do those things like it is in our nature to lift our eyes unto the heavens and ask: how? why? does all that exists exist? Humanity for the most part has known better than to believe it is just some random accident.

You are asserting this bullshit ad hoc. We have found better, FAR more effective ways to investigate the world without making shit up as we go along. And we come up with REAL answers, not pretend answers like your superstitions pander.




Funny that you showed your mug here after having fled the Boxing Ring with your tail between your legs after being soundly beaten.



(22-04-2014 09:15 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Blah blah blah

And to reiterate, the majority of people now as well as throughout all of history have not seen the universe as some sort of result of natural forces acting on matter over time.

And the majority of people throughout history thought the world is flat. That doesn't mean that this ignorance too can be cured.



(22-04-2014 01:08 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I do not agree. Why disbelieve the claim as default. Why not believe it until it is proven false?

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It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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22-04-2014, 04:08 PM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 01:08 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 12:09 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  Sounds to me like you are shifting the burden of proof.

The logical and reasonable method to follow is to disbelieve claims, such as a resurrection,until they meet their burden of proof. Not to believe them until they are proven false.

This leads to belief in all sorts of, possibly contradictory, claims until they proven falsie, which I am sure you don't do. You probably only reserve belief until proven false for your Christian beliefs.

I do not agree. Why disbelieve the claim as default. Why not believe it until it is proven false?

Alrighty then!

I know a guy, who knew a guy who raised from the dead and floated into the sky three days afterwards.
I know a guy, who knew a guy who spoke to a dude who witnessed a man riding a flying horse.
One time, there was this guy who turned a stick into a snake. Of course, I know this through a guy, who know a guy, whe knew a guy, who spoke to a witness of the event 30 years later.
The spirit in the Sun, which I call Phi, created all things.
Consequently, the Moon is a rock and the Sun a stone.
Every time a map is drawn, a new reality is created wherein the fictional map is the reality.

I suppose you have a lot of believing to do.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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22-04-2014, 04:26 PM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 04:06 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  I don't want to get into a political debate in this thread (I'm a card carrying Libertarian), but I want to focus on this specific paragraph as it relates to teachers.

I'd be a lot less political if you didn't mention a political identity, you know.

(22-04-2014 04:06 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  If a number of teachers are held in contempt by people, IMHO, it has more to do with the education level of the teachers themselves more so than people not liking the smart people. I'll grant that much of this is anecdotal and based on personal observation...

Well, there's your problem.
Tongue

Didn't we just eviscerate the whole "believed until proven wrong" thing?

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22-04-2014, 04:33 PM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 01:05 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Although tis true that I'm religious. I disagree that there is any correlation between my denial of man-caused global warming. As such I kinda feel as though that one was out of place.

Its kinda funny, I was thinking about mentioning the fact that my history teacher at my university decided to ask the first years whether or not they believed in man-caused global warming and no one said the believed in it. So at my school there is a 100% denial of global warming. I thought that was kind of neat.

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It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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22-04-2014, 07:46 PM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
I didn't read the last 6 pages and truthfully that's what most americans do....they skim over the science and don't examine it at all. When you do that, you have a public that is ignorant to what science has discovered.

I am ignorant of the conversation going on here but I'm still giving my 2 cents on the topic and that's the problem. People get snips of news and often it's biased or even just a poorly worded headline. And if that's all the deeper you go into the facts, then you aren't getting all the facts.

Americans are lazy when it comes to science. And that, in turn, makes them stupid.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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22-04-2014, 10:57 PM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 10:20 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  One of the major problems with Americans is their dislike of intelligent people. We celebrate ignorance, admire a simple manly man who acts with conviction but with little brain power. *cough* george bush, cough* Teachers are looked down on, not paid well and and treated as pawns by politicians who love to tinker with the education system every two or four years during re-election season. Teachers on the front line of education, those in the classroom interacting with the students seldom have any say as to what should be taught and how to teach it. It all comes down from school administrators who haven't been in a classroom in years -if ever and politicians who are often ignorant.

Americans have a perception that a highly educated person is a "nerd". An educated person isn't "cool". Someone smart is "socially inept" or just boring to listen to. Most Americans know who Kim Kardashian is but who knows who the latest Nobel Prize winner for chemistry is?

As long as educated people aren't celebrated or admired they won't be listened to and mundane youtube videos of stupid crap will continue to be the height of peoples day. Scientific facts and global warming? Americans are bored by stuff like that.

When scientists start dating supermodels Americans might take interest. Other than that, it's a lost cause.

Awesome post!
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22-04-2014, 11:20 PM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 04:06 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 10:20 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  One of the major problems with Americans is their dislike of intelligent people. We celebrate ignorance, admire a simple manly man who acts with conviction but with little brain power. *cough* george bush, cough* Teachers are looked down on, not paid well and and treated as pawns by politicians who love to tinker with the education system every two or four years during re-election season. Teachers on the front line of education, those in the classroom interacting with the students seldom have any say as to what should be taught and how to teach it. It all comes down from school administrators who haven't been in a classroom in years -if ever and politicians who are often ignorant.

I don't want to get into a political debate in this thread (I'm a card carrying Libertarian), but I want to focus on this specific paragraph as it relates to teachers. If a number of teachers are held in contempt by people, IMHO, it has more to do with the education level of the teachers themselves more so than people not liking the smart people. I'll grant that much of this is anecdotal and based on personal observation, but the kids I saw going into education when I went to school had what I thought was the minimum threshold needed to succed in a university setting in the 90s. I'm sure university life has changed for the worse today based on the increasing number of ridiculous degrees coupled with the influx of even MORE kids into the bachelor/masters/PhD granting institutions that have ZERO business setting foot on those campii. The phrase "those who can, do while those who can't, teach" is not an accident.

Now I think teachers should be treated with respect and acknowledged for what they do. But my experience has shown me that most teachers aren't all that bright. I think those teaching in the high school level are at a higher level than those in elementary ed, but not all of them are sharp people.

What I think happened is that there has been a LACK of focus for many years on pushing the STEM subjects. I think those trends are changing now for the better. But I also think that the one size fits all educational standards foisted on the states by the Feds is a gross mistake. IMHO, the states are the keepers of the education laws. That Kansas needs to focus on for educating their kids may be different than what NY, MA or PA should focus on. Science is science. But more control over education at the state and school level will do much to improve things in lieu of more national standards. They need to teach less topics at much deeper depths than to go a mile wide and an inch in depth on the subjects being taught at schools today.

There's also a free market problem.

People with STEM backgrounds have much more lucrative, well-paying careers they can be pursuing than "teacher". If you want to attract them, you have them something that can compete with what a post-bacc/masters in a STEM subject can earn in the private sector.

Which is cause, which is effect? Don't know. Don't care. The question is how to fix both problems.

(And let's be honest. The people who call the shots in this country don't give a crap about education. They'd never finance decent teachers.)

Also, in lieu of national standards, a quarter of the states will decide to implement mandatory religious education, and another quarter will go with the half-assed "teach the controversy" approach that still harms education.

The way I figure it, if a state takes federal education money, they should be required to teach to federal standards, at least in part. The federal government should have SOME say about how its own money's being spent. For that matter, there are certain activities (eg religious instruction) which it is BARRED from financing.
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22-04-2014, 11:50 PM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 07:22 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  The line "facts can't argue against faith" is so true! Just when I thought we were moving in the right direction as belief has been declining. Then again, if you polled our society on how long it takes for the earth to orbit the sun one time, I am sure more than a few would get it wrong. What a stupid, stupid country we are becoming.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/21...84931.html

The headline should swap the word 'doubt' with 'abject ignorance'... Dodgy

As in "New Poll Reveals Many Americans Express Abject Ignorance Over Global Warming, Evolution, Big Bang"



(22-04-2014 01:08 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I do not agree. Why disbelieve the claim as default. Why not believe it until it is proven false?

This is why you are an absolute fucking moron.

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23-04-2014, 12:27 AM
RE: Is Trust in Science Lost in USA
(22-04-2014 01:08 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 12:09 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  Sounds to me like you are shifting the burden of proof.

The logical and reasonable method to follow is to disbelieve claims, such as a resurrection,until they meet their burden of proof. Not to believe them until they are proven false.

This leads to belief in all sorts of, possibly contradictory, claims until they proven falsie, which I am sure you don't do. You probably only reserve belief until proven false for your Christian beliefs.

I do not agree. Why disbelieve the claim as default. Why not believe it until it is proven false?

There are three very important responses to this question.

1) As pointed out, that would require us to simultaneously believe a multitude of mutually contradictory claims. That's well beyond even the scope of Orwellian doublethink. Seriously not something the human brain is capable of.

2) "Not believing" is not the same thing as disbelieving. Neither believing nor disbelieving is what's being offered as the default. What's being offered as the default is "reserved belief"... that is, withholding judgement one way or the other, at least until one has had time to judge the evidence. In short, an agnostic position, where one honestly says, "hey, I dunno, maybe, maybe not, I'm looking into it" rather than just asserting one way or another and hoping to win the guessing lottery.

3) As if response 1 weren't enough, the brain must actually labor harder to identify and correct an erroneous belief, then it must do to hold the "maybe but I'm not sure" position. Once you commit to the belief, the brain has serious difficulties disbelieving if it's later discovered that belief it's false. It also interferes with the ability to RECOGNIZE that the belief is false.

I spied someone calling this attitude of automatic belief moronic. I think that's too strong a word. I agree that it's... ill-advised. But "moronic" implies an ingrained, insurmountable limitation of one's own attributes, and I think this is more a case of conditioning, negligent upbringing, and lack of acquaintance with basic critical thinking skills.
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