Is a Conspiracy Theorist someone who ignorantly believes things,?
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13-08-2013, 08:30 PM
Is a Conspiracy Theorist someone who ignorantly believes things,?
Or would you say they could be people that have actually researched it?

Lets be honest, there are some pretty wacky theories out there that just make scream in my pillow. But SOME of them could be legit. I'm not one to be naive, but some of them seem legit. JFK, 9/11, and a few others. Of course it will be up to debate, but it is not something we can say is stupid like religion Tongue

Thoughts?
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13-08-2013, 08:57 PM
RE: Is a Conspiracy Theorist someone who ignorantly believes things,?
Conspiracies are like anything else, they require concrete evidence to be believed by a rational person. While this may be an overly simplified statement, considering that there are many, many different factors that contribute to the relevancy of a conspiracy theory, which it is important to distinguish. I think that each individual person will take the same evidence differently in a conspiracy situation. Religion, politics, and individual opinions all muddy the waters in a person's mind while they are examining an argument for an incredible or controversial claim. Say for instance you hate the government, wouldn't you be more inclined to support a government sponsored 9/11 attack?

In the end it all comes down to the individual world views of the person in question and also the cultural climate around them at the moment . Conspiracies are like reopening a murder case after a party has been found guilty of the crime, it is a very long uphill battle to overturn that ruling. Remember, extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.

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13-08-2013, 09:06 PM
RE: Is a Conspiracy Theorist someone who ignorantly believes things,?
(13-08-2013 08:57 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Conspiracies are like anything else, they require concrete evidence to be believed by a rational person. While this may be an overly simplified statement, considering that there are many, many different factors that contribute to the relevancy of a conspiracy theory, which it is important to distinguish. I think that each individual person will take the same evidence differently in a conspiracy situation. Religion, politics, and individual opinions all muddy the waters in a person's mind while they are examining an argument for an incredible or controversial claim. Say for instance you hate the government, wouldn't you be more inclined to support a government sponsored 9/11 attack?

In the end it all comes down to the individual world views of the person in question and also the cultural climate around them at the moment . Conspiracies are like reopening a murder case after a party has been found guilty of the crime, it is a very long uphill battle to overturn that ruling. Remember, extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.

Well put.

It's better to keep in mind two simple precepts, so far as human events are concerned:
Simple is preferable to complex.
Incompetence is preferable to malice.

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16-08-2013, 06:47 PM
RE: Is a Conspiracy Theorist someone who ignorantly believes things,?
I was going to start a separate thread for this, but this one is in the same vein.

Generally I'm skeptical that most conspiracy theorists really believe any of it. This is from personal experience... I wouldn't say I was a real believer, but I used to read a lot of them, and found them very intriguing. It's the same thrill you might get from a murder mystery novel... but with an element of reality to it, or at least the illusion of reality.

I didn't look at any of the "evidence" because - while I might not have admitted it at the time - I enjoyed the fantasy, and didn't want to have the illusion shattered.

Now I realize that I never fully "believed" in any of it... although I may have convinced myself that I did. I find I can't live a make-believe reality anymore, so I looked at the evidence and accepted it was all bollocks... exciting, and thrilling bollocks, but bollocks all the same.

So I wonder how many of these conspiracy people actually do believe it, and how many are just pretending?

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16-08-2013, 06:52 PM
RE: Is a Conspiracy Theorist someone who ignorantly believes things,?
(16-08-2013 06:47 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  ... This is from personal experience... I wouldn't say I was a real believer, but I used to read a lot of them, and found them very intriguing. It's the same thrill you might get from a murder mystery novel... but with an element of reality to it, or at least the illusion of reality.

That, I can understand; I've felt the same way, reading some of the crazier stories. It's quite entertaining.

(16-08-2013 06:47 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  Now I realize that I never fully "believed" in any of it... although I may have convinced myself that I did. I find I can't live a make-believe reality anymore, so I looked at the evidence and accepted it was all bollocks... exciting, and thrilling bollocks, but bollocks all the same.

So I wonder how many of these conspiracy people actually do believe it, and how many are just pretending?

That's the thing; we have some... special? Sure. We have some special contributors around here, at times, but there's really no way of knowing whether they're True Believers or just dedicated trolls.

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16-08-2013, 08:49 PM
RE: Is a Conspiracy Theorist someone who ignorantly believes things,?
(16-08-2013 06:52 PM)cjlr Wrote:  That's the thing; we have some... special? Sure. We have some special contributors around here, at times, but there's really no way of knowing whether they're True Believers or just dedicated trolls.

I don't mean so much those who pretend to believe just to troll the forum... but do those who claim to believe really believe, or have they just convinced themselves that they do? As in, they know there's no evidence to support their claims, yet choose to ignore it or suppress their doubts.

The whole idea of confirmation bias... wanting to believe is a big part of it.

Though I seriously doubt any would admit it, I'm sure that a large percentage of the 9/11 truth movement, actually want their theory to be correct. And I think the same goes for any other conspiracy theory out there.

If that makes any sense...

The stars are matter, we are matter... but it doesn't matter. - Captain Beefheart
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16-08-2013, 09:01 PM
RE: Is a Conspiracy Theorist someone who ignorantly believes things,?
JFK and 911 make such good conspiracy fodder because the official versions are so dubious.

A wingless plane with no tail hits the Pentagon? A dude leaves a tear jerking cell phone message, regains control of the cockpit in hand to hand combat and then initiates a nose dive above PA? Both towers look exactly like a controlled demolition.

A magical bullet arcs to hit JFK at a different angle?

....Doesn't mean the consipiracists are anywhere near the truth mind you... Just like if one could prove there was a god it wouldn't make it the christian god.....It just means the official versions don't add up.

...Oh and as always the conspiracy vs the state crap probably obscures a lot of real issues like all the asbestos the EPA likely neglected to clean up in NYC and firefighters not getting their medical.

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16-08-2013, 09:17 PM
RE: Is a Conspiracy Theorist someone who ignorantly believes things,?
(16-08-2013 09:01 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  A wingless plane with no tail hits the Pentagon? A dude leaves a tear jerking cell phone message, regains control of the cockpit in hand to hand combat and then initiates a nose dive above PA? Both towers look exactly like a controlled demolition. A magical bullet arcs to hit JFK at a different angle?

They look a little funny on the surface, sure. If you don't understand the physics... And if you're predisposed to disbelieve anything you think is too "official" or "mainstream" then that leaves only the specious fringe conclusions.

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16-08-2013, 09:45 PM
RE: Is a Conspiracy Theorist someone who ignorantly believes things,?
(16-08-2013 09:01 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  JFK and 911 make such good conspiracy fodder because the official versions are so dubious.

A wingless plane with no tail hits the Pentagon? A dude leaves a tear jerking cell phone message, regains control of the cockpit in hand to hand combat and then initiates a nose dive above PA? Both towers look exactly like a controlled demolition.

A magical bullet arcs to hit JFK at a different angle?

....Doesn't mean the consipiracists are anywhere near the truth mind you... Just like if one could prove there was a god it wouldn't make it the christian god.....It just means the official versions don't add up.

...Oh and as always the conspiracy vs the state crap probably obscures a lot of real issues like all the asbestos the EPA likely neglected to clean up in NYC and firefighters not getting their medical.

I'm not going to debate all of the points you've raised there... I've done it before on other forums and it takes a hell of a lot of typing, and basically... I can't be arsed. Big Grin

All I'll say about them is there are very good, scientific explanations for all of the points you've raised. Please, do yourself a favor and take a good long, in depth look at the evidence available. I think what you'll find is that the scientific/forensic evidence is 9 times out of 10 in favor of the official story... Ignore what politicians say, and focus on the scientists... since they have no vested interest.

But what I will say is, real conspiracies tend to happen on a small scale, where they go unnoticed by the majority of people. They take place in back rooms and involve brief cases stuffed with cash.

Or - as is increasingly the case in this age of embedded and professional journalism - manipulation of the media to distort facts and hide the truth. I highly recommend watching some of John Piger's excellent documentaries and reading his monthly articles on current global affairs.

In particular watch the film 'The War You Don't See'... which you can find here. Thumbsup

The stars are matter, we are matter... but it doesn't matter. - Captain Beefheart
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16-08-2013, 09:55 PM (This post was last modified: 16-08-2013 10:12 PM by ridethespiral.)
RE: Is a Conspiracy Theorist someone who ignorantly believes things,?
(16-08-2013 09:17 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(16-08-2013 09:01 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  A wingless plane with no tail hits the Pentagon? A dude leaves a tear jerking cell phone message, regains control of the cockpit in hand to hand combat and then initiates a nose dive above PA? Both towers look exactly like a controlled demolition. A magical bullet arcs to hit JFK at a different angle?

They look a little funny on the surface, sure. If you don't understand the physics... And if you're predisposed to disbelieve anything you think is too "official" or "mainstream" then that leaves only the specious fringe conclusions.

I can get the pentagon, you can chalk that up to sheer velocity I suppose and I get the towers as well with the pancaking and all that, I'm sure physics/architecture can explain it but it heightens my sense of scrutiny. I'm not claiming that the government brought down the towers with C4 I'm saying the actual happenings look suspicious on the surface...

...Except the plane in PA, it just doesn't add up. I really can't believe some dude brought that plane down... It's perfectly plausible to assume it was shot down in a lesser of two evils situation...rural location....too good to be true cell phone calls...the logistics of reclaiming a cockpit that has been sealed without the aid of a hostage. Doesn't mean it was an inside job, just that collateral damage was covered up. The AF scrabbles jets many times in a year for less, they really wouldn't be doing their jobs if they knowingly let that plane crash into DC. The only conspiracy is in the cover up and if Bradley Manning has taught us anything it's that the military is really good at sweeping shit under the rug.

...and JFK? Come now, the dude was not a pinball machine and the mob kills Oswald almost immediately. Crazy unlikely ricochet is one thing, crazy unlikely ricochet, tons of foul play and broken procedure, and a second assassination is another thing entirely.

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