Is a sufficiently complex simulation of you....you?
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01-09-2012, 06:19 AM
RE: Is a sufficiently complex simulation of you....you?
(30-08-2012 06:29 PM)sekanitembo Wrote:  <snip>

I think the question I'm trying to get to is what would a person experience, from their point of view, if they died and then their mind was simulated in exact detail?

Would John die and then wake up in a computer simulated world? Drinking Beverage

Leonardo da Vinci Wrote:While I thought that I was learning how to live, I have been learning how to die.
Epicurus Wrote:Death means nothing to us...when we exist, death is not yet present, and when death is present, then we do not exist.
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10-09-2012, 01:16 AM
RE: Is a sufficiently complex simulation of you....you?
(01-09-2012 06:19 AM)Carnifex Wrote:  
(30-08-2012 06:29 PM)sekanitembo Wrote:  <snip>

I think the question I'm trying to get to is what would a person experience, from their point of view, if they died and then their mind was simulated in exact detail?

Would John die and then wake up in a computer simulated world? Drinking Beverage

Futurama Season 6 Episode 1
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16-09-2012, 11:47 PM
RE: Is a sufficiently complex simulation of you....you?
It is a copy. Anything short of actually keeping the original brain alive must be a copy.
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19-09-2012, 05:01 AM
RE: Is a sufficiently complex simulation of you....you?
It would be "a" me. I am not a constant. I am a series of states of matter that came together to form me, and were continually recycled with new matter and energy over time to form new "me"s over time. I am not the person I was ten years ago. I'm almost the same person as I was a moment ago, but I am different. I am in a different state. To define "me" in any way that equates to the totality of my life I have to count all of the states from my birth to my death and the transitions between them.

If a state in my life's path becomes duplicated and the two duplicate states begin to diverge from each other then they are both me. They both share a portion of my life and they both have claim to be me. Now they are different "me"s. If one should die it dies. "A" me dies. My life's path branched from a line to a tree when that one state became duplicated and the lines began to diverge. Now one of the branches has died.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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19-09-2012, 06:21 AM
RE: Is a sufficiently complex simulation of you....you?
(31-08-2012 08:32 PM)Humakt Wrote:  
(31-08-2012 08:15 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  Yes, awareness is what I was assuming everyone was on about. If it is "would the newly created me continue to live as I would have" then, yes, I guess? It looks like you, talks like you, acts like you, loves like you, then it's you.

But as I was previously stating--and awareness is a much better way to word it. Thank you--then obviously no, this new you isn't you.

So are identical twins who think and act the same, the same person?

If you say they dont think exactly the same, then does your "copy" not almost immediatly start to think differently to you as its sensory input will differ from yours at the point of creation. The longer it exists the more divergent its expierance will be, the more its expierance differ the less like you it will be.

Has anyone here seen the movie "The Prestige?" It touches on this topic in a way because of how things unfold.. It's been out quite awhile so I'm not going to avoid spoilers, in case many haven't seen it. It's great for those who have not seen it, a magician showdown of Batman vs Wolverine.

Oddly I was going to bring it up just in the "simulation" aspect but oddly it does involve identical twins acting as the same person as well. To others they seem as the same person but some odd behavior switch, but who determines who a person is? The self or the perception from outside? I'm not sure for I think it's a combination of several viewpoints.

In regards to the main question.. in the film, yes it's just a film but what else can we use to judge judge conscious cloning at this time. The character played by Hugh Jackman gets a machine from Nikola Telsa that creates a perfect clone of himself. He uses this in a magic act that fits exactly with the question here.. He has the machine clone himself then he drowns himself in a vat below the stage; the personality, memory, etc. Is the same and he lives on from that moment where he was cloned. This happens over and over again so while he technically is a clone of a clone on and on.. he is still himself in every describable way.

As far as the argument that goes on to say, we'll when you have no experiences you are no longer the same. That's just equal to me not being cloned either way. 10 hours from now I am different because of new experiences whether that happened via a clone experiencing the new lives or myself in this form.

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24-09-2012, 09:49 AM
RE: Is a sufficiently complex simulation of you....you?
(19-09-2012 05:01 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  It would be "a" me. I am not a constant. I am a series of states of matter that came together to form me, and were continually recycled with new matter and energy over time to form new "me"s over time. I am not the person I was ten years ago. I'm almost the same person as I was a moment ago, but I am different. I am in a different state. To define "me" in any way that equates to the totality of my life I have to count all of the states from my birth to my death and the transitions between them.

If a state in my life's path becomes duplicated and the two duplicate states begin to diverge from each other then they are both me. They both share a portion of my life and they both have claim to be me. Now they are different "me"s. If one should die it dies. "A" me dies. My life's path branched from a line to a tree when that one state became duplicated and the lines began to diverge. Now one of the branches has died.

Yes but what would you consciously experience in that situation?

Leonardo da Vinci Wrote:While I thought that I was learning how to live, I have been learning how to die.
Epicurus Wrote:Death means nothing to us...when we exist, death is not yet present, and when death is present, then we do not exist.
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24-09-2012, 08:42 PM
RE: Is a sufficiently complex simulation of you....you?
(27-08-2012 11:32 AM)Carnifex Wrote:  Let's suppose that after you die, scientists are somehow able to create a computer simulation of your brain, as it was in your final moments. A simulation with the accuracy down to the atomic level.

Would the simulation actually be you or just a copy?

And if you think it would be a copy; why would it just be a copy?


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No. What makes (has the most influence on) a human personality is the environment it's in and the environment that molds it's thinking.
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27-09-2012, 04:39 PM
RE: Is a sufficiently complex simulation of you....you?
(24-09-2012 08:42 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(27-08-2012 11:32 AM)Carnifex Wrote:  Let's suppose that after you die, scientists are somehow able to create a computer simulation of your brain, as it was in your final moments. A simulation with the accuracy down to the atomic level.

Would the simulation actually be you or just a copy?

And if you think it would be a copy; why would it just be a copy?


Drinking Beverage

No. What makes (has the most influence on) a human personality is the environment it's in and the environment that molds it's thinking.

Well, what if they simulated the environment for the simulated brain as well?

Leonardo da Vinci Wrote:While I thought that I was learning how to live, I have been learning how to die.
Epicurus Wrote:Death means nothing to us...when we exist, death is not yet present, and when death is present, then we do not exist.
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27-09-2012, 06:31 PM
RE: Is a sufficiently complex simulation of you....you?
(24-09-2012 09:49 AM)Carnifex Wrote:  
(19-09-2012 05:01 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  It would be "a" me. I am not a constant. I am a series of states of matter that came together to form me, and were continually recycled with new matter and energy over time to form new "me"s over time. I am not the person I was ten years ago. I'm almost the same person as I was a moment ago, but I am different. I am in a different state. To define "me" in any way that equates to the totality of my life I have to count all of the states from my birth to my death and the transitions between them.

If a state in my life's path becomes duplicated and the two duplicate states begin to diverge from each other then they are both me. They both share a portion of my life and they both have claim to be me. Now they are different "me"s. If one should die it dies. "A" me dies. My life's path branched from a line to a tree when that one state became duplicated and the lines began to diverge. Now one of the branches has died.

Yes but what would you consciously experience in that situation?

One would think it's thoughts, the other would think the other's thoughts. Why should it be anything other than that? Do twins think each others' thoughts? After all identical twins follow this same model where two individuals diverge from the life path of a single individual, but do so very early in their life paths. Naturally the closer the two individuals are to their divergence point and the more similar their environments since that time the more correlated their thoughts would be... but the point is that you have created two individuals out of one. Without some further lasting connection between them there no reason to think that they would in any way operate as a single individual.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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28-09-2012, 02:01 AM
RE: Is a sufficiently complex simulation of you....you?
(27-09-2012 04:39 PM)Carnifex Wrote:  
(24-09-2012 08:42 PM)I and I Wrote:  No. What makes (has the most influence on) a human personality is the environment it's in and the environment that molds it's thinking.

Well, what if they simulated the environment for the simulated brain as well?

Each mind takes the influence from the outside world differently but is still influenced by the outside world. There is no guarantee that a mind in the same environment will react the exact same way in detail. Minds do react in a general same way but not in a detail same way.
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