Is agnosticism even a religion?
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26-06-2013, 06:00 PM
RE: Is agnosticism even a religion?
(07-09-2012 08:37 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(07-09-2012 08:09 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Some people simply think it's about not having knowledge. They're entitled to their opinion and I'm entitled to disagree.

Established definitions are not a matter of opinion.

With all due respect (and I mean that sincerely), agnostics - at least those I've encountered - don't have a full grasp on what it means to be an agonstic (or even an atheist, for that matter). I too once identified heavily as an agnostic, and people kept telling me that I did so because I hadn't thought the whole thing through. Vehemently, I disagreed.

Well, to my dismay, they were correct. If you look up the definition of Agnosticism, you'll find that it is as I have described it. It partains to knowledge. Atheism (or Theism, for that matter) partains to belief. Knowledge and belief are two different things. That is why many atheists, myself included, identify as "agnostic atheists". When it comes to what we know; we don't know if God exists or not. Currently, we can't know. Perhaps one day we'll be able to, but for now, we simply do not know. As per the definition of Agnosticism.

When it comes to belief, though, we do not believe in the existence of God. That's not to say that we believe he doesn't exist, because that would enter the realm of knowledge, and we don't know. We're agnostic about God. But we while we don't believe that he doesn't exist; instead, we don't believe that he *does*.

This was once said to me when I was in your position, so I'm going to say it to you as well: you may want to check your definitions a bit. It's not a matter of opinion; it's a matter of what a word means, as well as what it doesn't mean.

Thats an interesting and very lucid point you make, personally I self identify as agnostic and I'm not mad keen on the "agnostic atheist" label. Having said that your post is the most compelling justification for it Ive yet come across. Certainly, I can see your reasoning and its compelling enough. To my mind although knowing and believing are distinct, the fact that Im not prone to believing anything I have no knowledge of I'm not feeling a need to be anything other than an agnostic.

Addendum: I of course believe in lots of stuff I have no direct knowledge of, however were I have belief it is in the credulity of the witnesses/advocate involved. I find the scientific community a better witness than the religious.

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27-06-2013, 12:23 AM
RE: Is agnosticism even a religion?
If agnosticism holds some moral principles, I can take it as a religion. I am a drishtantoist, drishtantoism is related somewhat to agnosticism.
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27-06-2013, 08:31 AM
RE: Is agnosticism even a religion?
(27-06-2013 12:23 AM)TanvirMasud Wrote:  If agnosticism holds some moral principles, I can take it as a religion. I am a drishtantoist, drishtantoism is related somewhat to agnosticism.

It doesn't and it isn't.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-06-2013, 01:27 PM
RE: Is agnosticism even a religion?
(07-09-2012 08:09 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Shiruba.

Fortunately there is no need for you to see a middle. We Agnostics will simply live there happily Cool

And I'm not an Agnostic to be friendly. I'm an Agnostic because I'm a logical human being Cool

We're here!
We're Agnostic!
Upon your terminology, run a diagnostic!

Yeah, we're still working on our chant... Drinking Beverage

Hey, Run.

Agnosticism isn't a creed. It's a method.

Some people simply think it's about not having knowledge. They're entitled to their opinion and I'm entitled to disagree.

Hey, Bucky.

Word up on the narrow definitions.

Do you like the Weak Atheist, Strong Atheist dichotomy, or do you think there is another term for people who don't simply lack belief, but make positive statements as well?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

You will always disagree on me with that Tongue

I want you to live happily.

Chant is fine! But very many agnostics I know do so out of simply out of avoiding confrontation. Doesn't mean I don't state them to not be rational. I am not a hardline atheist. I don't claim a God exist or not but I am not inclined to believe. You say you do not know which is fine but it isnt a middle ground.

I understand why you disagree. Sorry if I came off a hostile and there is no need for you to agree with me.

Its not my terminology but most likely how I was raised. It is more you believe or you don't around here and maybe that has ingrained itself to my head.

Undecided

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

It has been a long time. How have you been?
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27-06-2013, 01:52 PM
RE: Is agnosticism even a religion?
Since agnosticism is a position concerning knowledge (not belief), when it comes to existential claims, one can not be agnostic without also having a belief position.

Belief is the psychological state of accepting a proposition or premise to be true. Either one holds a proposition or premise to be true, or one doesn't. There is no middle ground between having a belief or not. Either a person has an active belief a god exists or they don't.

If a person is asked, "Do you believe a god exists?", and they answer, "I am agnostic", the person is actually not answering the question. They are answering a question concerning their belief position with an answer concerning what they claim to know.
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27-06-2013, 04:04 PM
RE: Is agnosticism even a religion?
(27-06-2013 12:23 AM)TanvirMasud Wrote:  If agnosticism holds some moral principles, I can take it as a religion. I am a drishtantoist, drishtantoism is related somewhat to agnosticism.

Agnosticism is a stance in regards to an amount of knowledge.
It literally means to be uncertain, not know, or can't know something. That's where it is. You can be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist, an agnostic deist, etc etc... the list goes on. It holds no inherent morality principles, just as a lack of belief does not hold any inherent principles of morality.

There are no doctrines with those who would call themselves agnostic atheists, as much as there are any doctrines with those who would claim to be gnostic atheists. If someone has a doctrine, it's generally because they follow a specific belief or sect of ideology. This comes back to the, "Atheism is as much a belief as collecting stamps is a hobby." and it would be the same for those who claim "agnosticism"...

This drishtantoism stuff has already been tried to be pedaled and pushed here. Using words in an intellectually dishonest manner and attempting to make it fit with a belief is not going to gain points with this forum in any way, shape or form.

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27-06-2013, 06:00 PM
RE: Is agnosticism even a religion?
In general terms, sure, a general definition works; but when it comes to a personal philosophy, I feel it is best left to the practitioner to define. Like Ghost, for instance. Tongue

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