Is atemporal causation possible?
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29-03-2015, 10:12 PM
Is atemporal causation possible?
It's a question I've had. Can something be said to 'cause' time to exist? Wouldn't that mean that at the point of creation time both exists and doesn't simultaneously?

I wonder about this because it seems to me that time is a paradox no matter what you do. If you go with infinite time then you run into the infinite regress paradox, but if you go for truly finite time then you run into this paradox of atemporal causation.
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29-03-2015, 10:32 PM (This post was last modified: 29-03-2015 10:40 PM by Ace.)
RE: Is atemporal causation possible?
causing time makes no sense

past(beginning) ------------- present-----------------future

creationists speak of time as a linear line with a definite past, present and future
this view certainly fits into our naive intuitive perception of reality but is entirely dead wrong
no one uses the term space and time in science but rather is called a four dimensional construct known as spacetime
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29-03-2015, 10:59 PM
RE: Is atemporal causation possible?
I don't think atemporal cauation is a thing. Then again, outside the universe or for the universe, causation may just not be a thing (it barely is inside it), and so maybe you don't have a paradox, as the apparent paradox is only an artefact of your attempt to apply the rules which govern the inside of the universe, to it as a whole...
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29-03-2015, 11:16 PM
RE: Is atemporal causation possible?
(29-03-2015 10:59 PM)Alex K Wrote:  I don't think atemporal cauation is a thing. Then again, outside the universe or for the universe, causation may just not be a thing (it barely is inside it), and so maybe you don't have a paradox, as the apparent paradox is only an artefact of your attempt to apply the rules which govern the inside of the universe, to it as a whole...

Does this apply to the infinite regress problem?
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29-03-2015, 11:28 PM
RE: Is atemporal causation possible?
I'm not sure what you mean, please elaborate. What I said was mainly meant to apply to the other alternative though (possibly a false dichotomy) that time has finite extent into the past.
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30-03-2015, 12:08 AM
RE: Is atemporal causation possible?
Schopenhauer said it best: "A first cause is just as inconceivable as is the point where space has an end or as a moment when time had a beginning."
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30-03-2015, 12:22 AM
RE: Is atemporal causation possible?
(29-03-2015 11:28 PM)Alex K Wrote:  I'm not sure what you mean, please elaborate. What I said was mainly meant to apply to the other alternative though (possibly a false dichotomy) that time has finite extent into the past.

I was thinking that finite time and infinite time are both paradoxical. One gets into atemporal causation, which makes no sense, and the other gets into the infinite regress, which makes no sense. It means time can neither be finite nor infinite. But I'm asking if the infinite regress paradox is only apparent, and artifact of trying to apply rules inside the universe to the whole?
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30-03-2015, 01:17 AM
RE: Is atemporal causation possible?
I'm not sure where the paradox is.

Dodgy
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30-03-2015, 02:16 AM
RE: Is atemporal causation possible?
(30-03-2015 12:22 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  
(29-03-2015 11:28 PM)Alex K Wrote:  I'm not sure what you mean, please elaborate. What I said was mainly meant to apply to the other alternative though (possibly a false dichotomy) that time has finite extent into the past.

I was thinking that finite time and infinite time are both paradoxical. One gets into atemporal causation, which makes no sense, and the other gets into the infinite regress, which makes no sense. It means time can neither be finite nor infinite. But I'm asking if the infinite regress paradox is only apparent, and artifact of trying to apply rules inside the universe to the whole?

I'd say you can easily have time as observed within our universe finite, and there's no paradox. As for the infinite time within our universe option, can you say again what the paradox is?

I still suspect that the two options are a false dichotomy. On the quantum gravity level, and near the big bang, time probably is a very fuzzy thing and not the nice smooth line we imagine in those arguments, that either ends or doesn't.
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30-03-2015, 03:02 AM
RE: Is atemporal causation possible?
Would help if we knew wtf time was... problem is we experience all this shit on human scale, it's easy to imagine stuff based on what our experience tells us about. But... to really answer these kindsa questions you gotta suspend your intuition because shit just doesn't work like that at all scales. I'm sure there are plenty of ideas for how time works and why things are the way they are, but it's a hard subject to grapple with.

If time is a property of *this* universe, another dimension, somehow built into the fabric of the universe, then it's not really valid to think of a time before the universe existed...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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