Poll: Is "belief" a choice
Yes. Belief is a choice.
No. Belief is not a choice.
I dont know
[Show Results]
Note: This is a public poll, other users will be able to see what you voted for.
Is "belief" a choice?...lets talk about that.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
10-03-2016, 09:23 AM
RE: Is "belief" a choice?...lets talk about that.
(10-03-2016 09:20 AM)natachan Wrote:  No with an element of yes.

You can choose to only search out arguments that agree with your position. You can define an internal model that reinforces your preferred position. You can choose to associate only with those who agree with your preferred position. You can choose to tell yourself that your feed feted position is correct. These things can influence belief.

But do you choose belief?

One description I've heard of uncomfortable beliefs is of "dark alleys [one] does not dare look down." The logical conclusions of what knowledge we have is inescapable but we can choose not to examine it.
Good point.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-03-2016, 09:29 AM
RE: Is "belief" a choice?...lets talk about that.
(10-03-2016 08:30 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(10-03-2016 08:20 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  I can see people getting all meta on this but that's bullshit. You have a brain and it choose what is more credible to you. It's a choice.

Ok, prove it. Choose to believe in god for the next 10 minutes.

If you choose your beliefs that should not be unreasonable, correct?

This is a poor rebuttal. I can most certainly choose to believe in God for the next 10 minutes if you present me with compelling evidence. I can choose to believe it and then 10 minutes later something else might present itself to make me disbelieve.

I used to believe and now I don't. How do you explain that if it's not conscious choice?

Got anything else?

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
----
Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes WillHopp's post
10-03-2016, 09:35 AM
RE: Is "belief" a choice?...lets talk about that.
(10-03-2016 09:29 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(10-03-2016 08:30 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Ok, prove it. Choose to believe in god for the next 10 minutes.

If you choose your beliefs that should not be unreasonable, correct?

This is a poor rebuttal. I can most certainly choose to believe in God for the next 10 minutes if you present me with compelling evidence. I can choose to believe it and then 10 minutes later something else might present itself to make me disbelieve.

I used to believe and now I don't. How do you explain that if it's not conscious choice?

Got anything else?
I would argue that in that particular example you provided, your change in belief is not by your choice but rather a product of the new information provided to you. If belief is a choice, you can believe something or not believe solely on your choosing thus not requiring any new thought or information. So...without any new evidence or thought I want you to choose to believe at this very moment that the computer you are using right now to read this post does not exist.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes jason_delisle's post
10-03-2016, 09:39 AM
RE: Is "belief" a choice?...lets talk about that.
I think the only way to shape your beliefs is to make an effort to restrict your access to specific sources of information. Once you comprehend the information, the belief is just a reflex.

The Bible often treats genuine belief as a human flaw, and something that should be overridden with blind, thoughtless obedience.
Proverbs 3:5 Wrote:Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding
2 Corinthians 5:7 Wrote:For we live by faith, not by sight.

If we came from dust, then why is there still dust?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes cactus's post
10-03-2016, 09:40 AM
RE: Is "belief" a choice?...lets talk about that.
(10-03-2016 09:29 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(10-03-2016 08:30 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Ok, prove it. Choose to believe in god for the next 10 minutes.

If you choose your beliefs that should not be unreasonable, correct?

This is a poor rebuttal. I can most certainly choose to believe in God for the next 10 minutes if you present me with compelling evidence. I can choose to believe it and then 10 minutes later something else might present itself to make me disbelieve.

I used to believe and now I don't. How do you explain that if it's not conscious choice?

Got anything else?

Did you read my lengthier post above, using your example?

There is no evidence in my rebuttal. If you claim that we choose our beliefs then you should be able to choose to believe (or not believe) without any evidence.

If you are considering evidence, then you are basing your belief on the acceptance of the evidence, much of which is subconscious.

We accept evidence and that convinces us to believe.

You are welcome to disagree.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Fatbaldhobbit's post
10-03-2016, 09:51 AM
RE: Is "belief" a choice?...lets talk about that.
(10-03-2016 08:20 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  ... I am choosing one story over the other, hence my choice was to believe A over B.

I can see people getting all meta on this but that's bullshit. You have a brain and it choose what is more credible to you. It's a choice.

Yes that's a choice BETWEEN proposition A and proposition B.

Also correct but seemingly in contradiction to the above is ...

(10-03-2016 08:39 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  ...
its just the result of processing the available information/experience, and that is not arbitrary.
...

and ...

(10-03-2016 09:00 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  ...
To summarize:
We analyze the data and determine what the facts and evidence are, then we determine what facts are true and relevant.

This information is the evidence which convinces us to accept a belief.
...

What you actually have is evidence (reasoning, logic etc.) that supports or does not support proposition A AND evidence that supports or does not support proposition B.

So A OR not A
AND
B OR not B.

No arbitration is required for the first (the As) OR for the second (the Bs). No choice involved, you're either convinced or you're not.

Where choice enters the debacle is in your arbitration BETWEEN A and B.

Thumbsup

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes DLJ's post
10-03-2016, 09:53 AM
RE: Is "belief" a choice?...lets talk about that.
(10-03-2016 09:39 AM)cactus Wrote:  I think the only way to shape your beliefs is to make an effort to restrict your access to specific sources of information. Once you comprehend the information, the belief is just a reflex.

The Bible often treats genuine belief as a human flaw, and something that should be overridden with blind, thoughtless obedience.
Proverbs 3:5 Wrote:Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding
2 Corinthians 5:7 Wrote:For we live by faith, not by sight.
Would you say that "belief" and "faith" are the same?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-03-2016, 09:59 AM
RE: Is "belief" a choice?...lets talk about that.
(10-03-2016 09:51 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Thumbsup

Dude. You're hurting my brain... Consider





As an aside:
Concepts like this and the objective morality thing, is why people turn to religion.
It's much easier to have someone tell you the answer than to work it out for yourself...

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Fatbaldhobbit's post
10-03-2016, 10:00 AM
RE: Is "belief" a choice?...lets talk about that.
I don't really believe in "free will" I think the evidence shows that it really doesn't exist (at least the way we *think* it does, using the common definition).

So the topic question to me is moot.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Momsurroundedbyboys's post
10-03-2016, 10:04 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2016 10:14 AM by cactus.)
RE: Is "belief" a choice?...lets talk about that.
(10-03-2016 09:53 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(10-03-2016 09:39 AM)cactus Wrote:  I think the only way to shape your beliefs is to make an effort to restrict your access to specific sources of information. Once you comprehend the information, the belief is just a reflex.

The Bible often treats genuine belief as a human flaw, and something that should be overridden with blind, thoughtless obedience.
Would you say that "belief" and "faith" are the same?

No, faith can influence your beliefs, but I think belief is a much more subconscious process. I would say that faith is mostly a manifestation of peer pressure, and often a tool that people use to suppress their beliefs.

A common saying in Christianity is "I'm struggling with my faith," which means "My beliefs are starting to become more apparent to me, but I don't like them. I need to crank up the volume on my faith to drown out those beliefs, or even permanently change them if I can manage to keep myself sheltered enough from outside influences."

If we came from dust, then why is there still dust?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like cactus's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: