Is belief in God morally wrong?
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05-03-2012, 11:02 PM
RE: Is belief in God morally wrong?
A belief in a god is not morally wrong, however if you sign up for other things [Ten commandmants, allowing genocide, ect] then yes it is.

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
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06-03-2012, 10:23 PM
RE: Is belief in God morally wrong?
(05-03-2012 10:53 PM)nach_in Wrote:  why would a belief be morally wrong?
...can we be morally wrong in the case we're misinformed about something? no, we would be only mistaken, that's not morally bad.

You just answered the question. Now you see why the belief is immoral.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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07-03-2012, 12:00 AM
RE: Is belief in God morally wrong?
Belief itself is never immoral. You can think whatever you want inside your mind and it won't affect others in any given way or inflict harm on anyone but yourself. When you act on belief however you can commit immoral acts.

This is why good people can be religious.
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07-03-2012, 12:29 AM
RE: Is belief in God morally wrong?
(06-03-2012 10:23 PM)Thomas Wrote:  
(05-03-2012 10:53 PM)nach_in Wrote:  why would a belief be morally wrong?
...can we be morally wrong in the case we're misinformed about something? no, we would be only mistaken, that's not morally bad.

You just answered the question. Now you see why the belief is immoral.

you missed my point, so you're mistaken about what I was trying to say, according to your logic, you're a bad person

that doesn't make any sense to me Undecided

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07-03-2012, 10:05 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2012 10:10 PM by Thomas.)
RE: Is belief in God morally wrong?
Maybe this will help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82YIluFmdbs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT4ruiB94...=endscreen

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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08-03-2012, 02:21 AM
RE: Is belief in God morally wrong?
(07-03-2012 10:05 PM)Thomas Wrote:  Maybe this will help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82YIluFmdbs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT4ruiB94...=endscreen

I think you're making a cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy (a causality fallacy) I mean, you're equating the belief in a god with a cause for immoral behaviour.

I propose this thought experiment, imagine a morally perfect person, never done and never will do an immoral act (yeah I know it's impossible but that's why it's a thought experiment Tongue) and this person believes in god. Does that belief, knowing that it doesn't causes any immoral behaviour in this person, is immoral in itself?

I don't think it is, I understand that a belief in a god can cause an immoral behaviour, but it's not a sufficient nor a necessary cause for that to happen. In other words, you can find an immoral non believer and a moral believer and vice versa.

Knowing that, the only way we can judge a belief (any kind of belief, not only religious) as moral or immoral, is if we find a set of rules to judge people's thoughts. But I never heard of any way we could do that, if you can find any way of examine a thought or belief disregarding their possible consequences that is not equally or more immoral then we may find an positive answer to your question.

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08-03-2012, 07:45 AM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2012 07:51 AM by Thomas.)
RE: Is belief in God morally wrong?
(08-03-2012 02:21 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I think you're making a cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy (a causality fallacy) I mean, you're equating the belief in a god with a cause for immoral behaviour.

I propose this thought experiment, imagine a morally perfect person, never done and never will do an immoral act (yeah I know it's impossible but that's why it's a thought experiment Tongue) and this person believes in god. Does that belief, knowing that it doesn't causes any immoral behaviour in this person, is immoral in itself?

I don't think it is, I understand that a belief in a god can cause an immoral behaviour, but it's not a sufficient nor a necessary cause for that to happen. In other words, you can find an immoral non believer and a moral believer and vice versa.

Knowing that, the only way we can judge a belief (any kind of belief, not only religious) as moral or immoral, is if we find a set of rules to judge people's thoughts. But I never heard of any way we could do that, if you can find any way of examine a thought or belief disregarding their possible consequences that is not equally or more immoral then we may find an positive answer to your question.

I see your point. I do think the causality is there, but not exactly the apple I’m trying to pick.
I believe we are close to an answer. Let's run with it a bit:

The Definition of Morality from the Stanford Philosophy web page.

The term “morality” can be used either
1. Descriptively to refer to some "codes of conduct" put forward by a society or,
a. Some other group, such as a "religion", or
b. Accepted by an individual for her own behavior or

2. Normatively to refer to a "code of conduct" that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by "all rational persons".

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition

If we break apart the "code of conduct" as "code" driving "conduct" can we consider that an immoral act or conduct can be directly linked to its founding code?
If the founding code (how we must act) is based on a false belief system, can be say that the belief system can be considered immoral?
If the entire code system is based on the belief in a God that cannot be supported as Justified True Belief (JTB), is it then immoral to believe in God?

We could say that a person not believing in a God, but believing in a false proposition who then perpetrates an immoral act, on that belief, is basically in the same boat. The belief is not justified and has caused harm. Is it the belief or the act that we pin down as immoral, or both?

In the case of an inconsequential misbelieve that doesn't cause harm, is the belief still immoral? I believe a case can be made at any false belief is immoral regardless of the conduct it causes, even if the conduct is moral, such as religious groups feeding the hungry. Is their underlying belief in God is still immoral?

Do we in essence have two categories?
1.Moral behavior
2.Moral belief

...or are these two concepts linked tightly together to act as the basis for all conduct?

If your code of conduct comes from the Bible, you have taken a code given to you as the basis for what is moral. Your judgment has been replaced by a written text for the basis of all actions. If your basis for believing in the Bible is belief in God, and I presume this is a fair assumption, we get to belief in God as the basis for actions.

It all falls back to belief in God as the basis for all moral code. If the code (Bible) is immoral, a person not believing in God would not take the code as the unquestionable moral standard.

My conclusion then is that the belief in God is immoral.
It is not based on justified true belief and it leads one to blindly follow the guidelines of a book without using one's own rational judgment to assess the morality of one's own actions.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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08-03-2012, 12:49 PM
RE: Is belief in God morally wrong?
I like that definition, but I found a problem in your reasoning, you equate the the morality of the code of conduct with the morality of the belief system.

If the code of conduct is immoral (this is tricky because you would need a meta-code to judge the code itself, but I can go on without considering this part, maybe later if you refute me Tongue ) then the acts done based on that code would be immoral, that's right, BUT, the belief system in which a person takes the code is not immoral as it depends on true or false premisses, the premiss "god exist" is false, and some people give up their judgement (which can be considered immoral based on that meta-code I mentioned) which leads to following an immoral code and immoral conducts, but the belief in which all of that is based is FALSE not immoral.

Check the second part of the definition you quoted, "given specified conditions, would be put forward by "all rational persons"." all rational persons, if you are being irrational doesn't mean you're being immoral because of the irrationality, you're immoral because you don't follow the code of conduct.

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08-03-2012, 01:04 PM
RE: Is belief in God morally wrong?
Let me try and rephrase this in the way I understand Thomas to be making his argument.

Let's first start with the viewpoint of these three videos by QualiaSoup that I think are well done in analyzing how rational based morality is possible and in fact superior to religious based morality: QualiaSoup Morality Playlist

In the 3 videos he lays out essentially how you go about constructing a moral foundation from a rational standpoint, and(here is the important part), why absolutes such as the idea of infallible perfection without rational justification CAN NOT function as a basis for morality.

So now let's replace the word "God" in Thomas's argument in this thread, with the word "perfection." If you are trying to construct a morality based around reason and rational thinking, simply believing that something such as "perfection" exists breaks your ability to accurately construct that morality.

If I'm misrepresenting you here Thomas feel free to say so but I think some people are not quite getting the point of your argument.
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08-03-2012, 05:23 PM
RE: Is belief in God morally wrong?
(08-03-2012 01:04 PM)Superluminal Wrote:  So now let's replace the word "God" in Thomas's argument in this thread, with the word "perfection." If you are trying to construct a morality based around reason and rational thinking, simply believing that something such as "perfection" exists breaks your ability to accurately construct that morality.

If I'm misrepresenting you here Thomas feel free to say so but I think some people are not quite getting the point of your argument.

"Construct a morality" is not the same as "plan out your day around an immoral belief". I'm not arguing that theists don't believe in and defend morality systems that are filled with decrees to do immoral things, but that their actions don't necessarily spring from these morality systems. We argue all the time about how the bible supports slavery, and yet those who say that these words are infallible do not, in fact, own slaves. Even though they say that they believe these things, their actions tell a different tale.

I know it seems logical that beliefs inform a person's actions, and they often do --- but they don't necessarily, and there are plenty of cases where they simply don't. Even if I believed that there was such a thing as perfection, it doesn't mean that I won't be lazy and do a haphazard job. I may even feel bad about it, but just the fact that I believe perfection exists and that I should strive for it doesn't mean that this interest is above all others.

Lastly, the conclusion drawn from your arguments (if correct) is that all believers are immoral. Why are you guys so desperate to paint believers as evil? They do that to us unbelievers, and their point is just as invalid. A person's actions can be good or evil, but a person himself or herself is not good or evil... we all do a mixture of both good and evil actions, because our motivations behind what we do changes depending on what we're currently doing. Stop trying to find a way to label people that you disagree with. To quote one thing the theists got right: "Love the sinner, hate the sin".

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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