Is belief in the unseen irrational?
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20-03-2016, 08:51 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(20-03-2016 08:27 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Did you miss the part where I made a distinction between instinctive rationalization and cognitive rationalization?

So... the whole 'Muscle reflex' thing was.... Consider

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Did you miss the part where I said cognitive rationalization could simply bean afterthought that helps the process of instinctive rationalization?

No... but it wasn't actually part of the initial conversation we were having, either.

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  It is quite possible our minds have both instinctive rationalization and cognitive rationalization to contend with when making decisions. It is also possible our instinctive rational overpowers cognitive rationalization in most instances, and in the few instances it doesn't, it still eats away at our mind.

As far as I know... any 'instinct' humans have fade at about 5. After that it's all what we learn.

Which brings me back to my thread of how can you possibly learn if some how nothing you learn you retain and seemingly MUST keep re-testing/learning it.

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Did you even read the articles? They are very relevant to the points I just made.

I sadly do not see how. No
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20-03-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(20-03-2016 08:43 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Note: And the reply to Unbeliever is exactly what I raised a few posts ago about Ag-Shane's world view... which they then slalomed away from.....

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How do you know the world is not inverted?

Inverted? Inverted how? Inverted to what?

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How do you know the color blue isn't really red?

Really? REALLY? We're going to fall down the hole of 'What colour is an Orange in the dark'? Blink

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How do you know the universe isn't something much more complicated than what we think it is?

But... the universe/reality is more complicated than we think. That's why people do science.

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How are you certain of what you perceive to be in a certain way actually exists in that same way you perceive it?

Because if it wasn't..... I'd possibly walk under a bus? See the post about 'reality' below...

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Who gets the privilege to say what something exists as?

At a base level? Reality is the arbiter of what does and does not exist. Unless you're hovering at your desk.. and not other-wise sitting in a chair? Consider

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Animals don't see the world as we do.

Again... do you even biology? Yes, yes they actually DO see the world the way we see it (*Note: Caveat upon using visual organs to see If you bring up Nagel's "What it is to be a bat" I will be so vexed) It's the neurons, their amount, bundling etc which determines everything else.

See the equivocation in the above? Consider

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  We don't have a sample of dark matter but we know something exists out there.

No, we actually don't know about dark matter/energy. That's WHY it's called 'Dark what's its'.....

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  What good reason should I believe in the existence of anything other than the belief that it exists based on my interaction with it?

Again, see my previous post about simply surviving in a day in your reality. As in "How do you suffer going to seep at night"?

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Why should I conclude a certain thing only exists in a certain way.

There's a really long series of Youtube clips and other reading about things like this.

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Conclusions are not my thing.

HOW do you function within life?

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  It is quite possible there are things that exist that we may never be able to prove exist.

yes, yes there might be. I've actually posted something about this as well many posts ago.....


(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  It is quite possible a Theist may experience something that I may never experience & is therefore justified in believing something exists that there is no physical evidence for.

No... just because some one has said they experienced something does not make it real. Come ON! We've been over this.

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  It is quite possible our belief system does not come due to our cognitive rationalization and awareness of the evidence, but rather an instinctive rationalization brought about by years of evolution and personal experiences.

These words above...? They make no sense... please re-post in a different format?
If everything in this world could someday be simulated for you to perceive it in the exact same way you do now, how would you know the difference if you were placed in that simulation?
How do you know you aren't currently in said simulation right now?
Is the fact that we currently have no such technology proof that it can never be done?

Do you think we are privileged to perceive what objective reality really is?
I don't believe I am that special, & it doesn't really bother me.
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20-03-2016, 08:55 PM (This post was last modified: 20-03-2016 09:03 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(20-03-2016 08:51 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(20-03-2016 08:27 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Did you miss the part where I made a distinction between instinctive rationalization and cognitive rationalization?

So... the whole 'Muscle reflex' thing was.... Consider

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Did you miss the part where I said cognitive rationalization could simply bean afterthought that helps the process of instinctive rationalization?

No... but it wasn't actually part of the initial conversation we were having, either.

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  It is quite possible our minds have both instinctive rationalization and cognitive rationalization to contend with when making decisions. It is also possible our instinctive rational overpowers cognitive rationalization in most instances, and in the few instances it doesn't, it still eats away at our mind.

As far as I know... any 'instinct' humans have fade at about 5. After that it's all what we learn.

Which brings me back to my thread of how can you possibly learn if some how nothing you learn you retain and seemingly MUST keep re-testing/learning it.

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Did you even read the articles? They are very relevant to the points I just made.

I sadly do not see how. No
1. Muscle reflex in reference to instinctive movement.
2. Can you now make cognitive/instinctive rationalization part of our conversation?
3. I never said we do not retain what we learn through cognitive rationalization. I looked at the possibility that it is not that often used in our decision making process and the times that it is used our instincts, if opposed to it, will strongly attempt to interefere with the decision.
4. The article is the closest research I have found on the topic of rational decisions being made by the instinctive part of the brain.
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20-03-2016, 08:56 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(20-03-2016 08:54 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If everything in this world could someday be simulated for you to perceive it in the exact same way you do now, how would you know the difference if you were placed in that simulation?
How do you know you aren't currently in said simulation right now?
Is the fact that we currently have no such technology proof that it can never be done?

Do you think we are privileged to perceive what objective reality really is?
I don't believe I am that special, & it doesn't really bother me.

Let me guess, your favourite film is, The Matrix, right?

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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20-03-2016, 09:01 PM (This post was last modified: 20-03-2016 09:07 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(20-03-2016 08:56 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(20-03-2016 08:54 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If everything in this world could someday be simulated for you to perceive it in the exact same way you do now, how would you know the difference if you were placed in that simulation?
How do you know you aren't currently in said simulation right now?
Is the fact that we currently have no such technology proof that it can never be done?

Do you think we are privileged to perceive what objective reality really is?
I don't believe I am that special, & it doesn't really bother me.

Let me guess, your favourite film is, The Matrix, right?
My favorite film is Life. I can't stop watching it.
Did you get > . ?
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20-03-2016, 09:04 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(20-03-2016 09:01 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(20-03-2016 08:56 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Let me guess, your favourite film is, The Matrix, right?
My favorite film is Life. I can't stop watching it.

You will one day.

My advice as a guy fighting life threatening cancer is this.

Stop wasting your time asking stupid questions that have no answers and simply Live.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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20-03-2016, 09:07 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How do you know the world is not inverted? How do you know the color blue isn't really red?

Because that is a nonsense proposition.

"Really" is not a magical word that you can add to a sentence to give it some "deeper" meaning. There has to be some circumstance that it describes for it to be any sort of coherent proposition.

There is no circumstance where blue is red, because the definitions of "blue" and "red" are not equivalent, and cannot be made equivalent.

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How do you know the universe isnt something much more complicated than what we think it is?

Did I say that it wasn't?

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How are you certain of what you perceive to be in a certain way actually exists in that same way you perceive it?

Because I perceive it. I am necessarily perceiving something; asking if it is "actually" what I perceive is the same problem with "really", as explained above.

You are asking nonsensical, undefined questions. And, as the saying goes, ask a stupid question...

Your entire position comes down to solipsism. Solipsism collapses the moment that you have coherent definitions.

You are not a skeptic. You are a rather silly man who thinks himself a philosopher when, in reality, you do not even grasp the basic concepts in play.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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20-03-2016, 09:12 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(20-03-2016 09:04 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(20-03-2016 09:01 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  My favorite film is Life. I can't stop watching it.

You will one day.

My advice as a guy fighting life threatening cancer is this.

Stop wasting your time asking stupid questions that have no answers and simply Live.
Best of luck with your cancer recovery.
Are you claiming that I cannot live if I ask subjectively stupid questions?

I don't think impending death should be my motivation to "live" by the way, but it does make time more valuable.
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20-03-2016, 09:16 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(20-03-2016 09:07 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How do you know the world is not inverted? How do you know the color blue isn't really red?

Because that is a nonsense proposition.

"Really" is not a magical word that you can add to a sentence to give it some "deeper" meaning. There has to be some circumstance that it describes for it to be any sort of coherent proposition.

There is no circumstance where blue is red, because the definitions of "blue" and "red" are not equivalent, and cannot be made equivalent.

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How do you know the universe isnt something much more complicated than what we think it is?

Did I say that it wasn't?

(20-03-2016 08:26 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How are you certain of what you perceive to be in a certain way actually exists in that same way you perceive it?

Because I perceive it. I am necessarily perceiving something; asking if it is "actually" what I perceive is the same problem with "really", as explained above.

You are asking nonsensical, undefined questions. And, as the saying goes, ask a stupid question...

Your entire position comes down to solipsism. Solipsism collapses the moment that you have coherent definitions.

You are not a skeptic. You are a rather silly man who thinks himself a philosopher when, in reality, you do not even grasp the basic concepts in play.
You said "There is no circumstance where blue is red, because the definitions of "blue" and "red" are not equivalent, and cannot be made equivalent."
I have never seen a definition of blue.
Can you prove to a color blind person blue exists?
If you told him blue does not exist why should he believe you?
What makes your reality more privilege on the spectrum of reality than theirs?
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20-03-2016, 09:17 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(20-03-2016 08:54 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If everything in this world could someday be simulated for you to perceive it in the exact same way you do now, how would you know the difference if you were placed in that simulation?

Consider Um.. what?

if I'm 'Put in' something... I'll kind of notice the whole 'Putting in' action, no?

(20-03-2016 08:54 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How do you know you aren't currently in said simulation right now?

Really? We're going off to 'The Matrix'/'Brain in a vat' side of philosophy?

(20-03-2016 08:54 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Is the fact that we currently have no such technology proof that it can never be done?

I'm pretty sure there's been lots of experimental pokes exactly at this kind of thinking.

I vaguely remember reading some where that our reality is 'Too analog' to be a simulation. Consider

(20-03-2016 08:54 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Do you think we are privileged to perceive what objective reality really is?

Consider

Nope... not grokking this.

(20-03-2016 08:54 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I don't believe I am that special, & it doesn't really bother me.

I wasn't posting about special. I was posting about how you could possibly function given your previous posts.

Again... HOW do you function given the posts in which you detail the supposed way you 'think'?
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