Is belief in the unseen irrational?
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21-03-2016, 06:12 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(21-03-2016 06:08 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Are we still bickering about color?
That depends if you exclude yourself or not from the "we" I think.
Awesome article by the way.
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21-03-2016, 06:16 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(21-03-2016 06:07 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(21-03-2016 06:04 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Nope. It's measurable. The wavelengths are not "subjective".
It's a discrete range in the spectrum.



Jumpin' geewillikers, batman. That's the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization falacy.
Bucky the formula for color requires both objective and subjective data. Thus the result will always be subjective.
The wave lengths of said color will always remain constant if the state remains constant but the state of the brain/eye required to get the resulting definition of the color is subjective. Therefore the type of color it is can change regardless of the objective state of the color. It cannot be objectively defined.
Your rebuttal refuses to acknowledge the 2nd part of the formula.

Nope. It's measurable and REPEATABLE by INSTRUMENTS. There's NOTHING 'subjective' about it, no matter how much you try to weasel out of your error.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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21-03-2016, 06:50 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(21-03-2016 05:30 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  What I should have said is I have never heard a definition of blue as far as objective reality is concerned.

I repeat my previous point regarding you not understanding the concepts in play.

(21-03-2016 05:30 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  There are things we naturally believe exist (like the color blue) but it is only an illusion of subjective reality. It cannot be said to exist as far as objective reality is concerned.

Wrong.

(21-03-2016 05:30 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  What if I suddenly saw a never seen before color for the first time due to some evolutionary mishap?
What if I told you that this color does not match any color we currently know of.
Would you consider my belief irational simply because you can't see it?

That depends on whether or not you can produce evidence that you are perceiving light of a different wavelength than standard human eyes are capable of.

(21-03-2016 05:30 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How can the scientific method help me prove this new color exists to anyone else bu myself?

By producing evidence that you are perceiving light of a different wavelength than standard human eyes are capable of.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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21-03-2016, 06:58 PM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2016 07:05 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(21-03-2016 06:50 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(21-03-2016 05:30 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  What I should have said is I have never heard a definition of blue as far as objective reality is concerned.

I repeat my previous point regarding you not understanding the concepts in play.

(21-03-2016 05:30 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  There are things we naturally believe exist (like the color blue) but it is only an illusion of subjective reality. It cannot be said to exist as far as objective reality is concerned.

Wrong.

(21-03-2016 05:30 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  What if I suddenly saw a never seen before color for the first time due to some evolutionary mishap?
What if I told you that this color does not match any color we currently know of.
Would you consider my belief irational simply because you can't see it?

That depends on whether or not you can produce evidence that you are perceiving light of a different wavelength than standard human eyes are capable of.

(21-03-2016 05:30 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How can the scientific method help me prove this new color exists to anyone else bu myself?

By producing evidence that you are perceiving light of a different wavelength than standard human eyes are capable of.
Are you saying that producing evidence that I can see things differently will prove that something I say exists? I'm not saying your logic is flawed (at least not yet), but I don't see the connection.

How did you get your conclusion to follow your premise?

How did you correlate being able to see things different to proving that something exists?
Wouldn't it just be proof that "I can see things differently"?

My apologies, but I won't just accept your claim that what I say is wrong simply because you say it is wrong. This is not to say I am incapable of admitting fault. I have done it many times on this forum.
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21-03-2016, 07:06 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
This happens all the time. Many people are color blind, to one degree or other.
They can recognize they don't see what others do. It doesn't change reality.
The wavelengths can STILL be measured by instruments.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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21-03-2016, 07:08 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(21-03-2016 06:58 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Are you saying that producing evidence that I can see things differently will prove that something I say exists? I'm not saying your logic is flawed (at least not yet), but I don't see the connection.

If you can't see the connection between proving that you can see different wavelengths of light than most people and proving that you can see different wavelengths of light than most people, then there is no help for you.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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21-03-2016, 07:17 PM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2016 07:22 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(21-03-2016 07:06 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  This happens all the time. Many people are color blind, to one degree or other.
They can recognize they don't see what others do. It doesn't change reality.
The wavelengths can STILL be measured by instruments.
What these instruments label as blue isn't based on an objective definition of blue but rather the average human perception of the color blue.
If the average human eye 10000 years from today evolved to see these same wavelengths on the same object as red, the instruments would be subjectively wrong as far as average human perception is concerned.
Are you going to tell everyone what they are seeing isn't red because it used to be blue?
What if 20000 years before that it used to be yellow?

Color has no place in objective reality. It is a subjective thing.
All the same I still believe blue exists, but that is a purely subjective claim.
Would you think I am irational simply because I believe in something that I cannot objectively prove exists?
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21-03-2016, 07:21 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(21-03-2016 07:17 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  What these instruments label as blue isn't based on an objective definition of blue

Yes, it is.

(21-03-2016 07:17 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If the average human eye 10000 years from today evolved to see these same wavelengths on the same object as red

This is a nonsense sentence. Whatever any eye sees as light of wavelength X is blue. That is what "blue" means.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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21-03-2016, 07:22 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(21-03-2016 07:17 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(21-03-2016 07:06 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  This happens all the time. Many people are color blind, to one degree or other.
They can recognize they don't see what others do. It doesn't change reality.
The wavelengths can STILL be measured by instruments.
What these instruments label as blue isn't based on an objective definition of blue but rather the average human perception of the color blue.
If the average human eye 10000 years from today evolved to see these same wavelengths on the same object as red, the instruments would be subjectively wrong as far as average human perception is concerned.
Are you going to tell everyone what they are seeing isn't red because it used to be blue?
What if 20000 years before that it used to be yellow?

Color has no place in objective reality. It is a subjective thing.

The instruments don't do any labeling of anything. They measure wavelengths ONLY.
You example is false. The WAVELENGTHS don't change. The label may change. The wavelength does not. Your example PROVES you have no clue what Physics, even high school Physics, teaches. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrometer

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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21-03-2016, 07:24 PM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2016 07:30 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(21-03-2016 07:21 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(21-03-2016 07:17 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  What these instruments label as blue isn't based on an objective definition of blue

Yes, it is.

(21-03-2016 07:17 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If the average human eye 10000 years from today evolved to see these same wavelengths on the same object as red

This is a nonsense sentence. Whatever any eye sees as light of wavelength X is blue. That is what "blue" means.
What happens to your claim when two different people see the exact same object with the exact same wavelength but one sees purple and the other one sees blue? It happens to a lot of people. It's called tetrachromacy.
What color is the object?
This woman sees a lot more colors than we do:
http://www.popsci.com/article/science/wo...age-person
Is her perception of reality wrong?
She won't see the same color blue that you see. She might not even see it anywhere near blue on the spectrum. So why should she believe the object you claim to be blue is blue?
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