Is belief in the unseen irrational?
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23-03-2016, 07:22 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(23-03-2016 07:03 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 07:02 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Yes. Drinking Beverage (If you are asking if the unseen is a magic sky genie).
I'm asking about things you have never directly observed via your sensory perception.
Have you ever seen the pyramids of Egypt & do you believe they exist?
Is your belief rational?
Does your understanding of unseen require the assumption that the thing in question has already been observed by someone else?

The pyramids are not a good example because anyone could travel there at any time to prove said existence.

If the thing I have not directly seen is commonplace, then I may or may not believe it, depending on the teller. What I mean is, my dad was a very honest person, almost to a fault, if he told me he went to the store, I would have believed him. Why? Because he is an honest person and going to the store is a normal every day occurrence. There would be no need for me to go fact checking. If I had a friend who was a pathological liar and lied about everything--I would not necessarily believe them if they said they went to the store since they lie about everything.

Now we add to all of this something so extraordinary. My dad, who is an honest person says that on his way to the store, he was kidnapped by pink aliens and flew to Miami in a disco ball shaped space ship and went swimming in the middle of shark infested waters, but did not get hurt since the pink aliens were able to subdue the sharks by singing Barry Manilow songs to them. I ask him if he has any proof. He says, no sadly the pink aliens flew back to Planet Pink, never to return again.

I would not believe this actually happened to my dad. Instead, I would think he may be suffering from some mental lapse, possibly was joking, I would check to see if it was April 1st, I would think he might have been slipped some kind of drug, these would be the things that I would consider--not the pink alien story. Why wouldn't I believe this pink alien shark swim actually happened to him? Because this is such an odd, extraordinary occurrence with zero evidence.

In orienteering through life you need a good BS detector, otherwise you will be easily taken advantage of. You can choose to believe everything other people tell you is truth--or you can weigh the evidence, use logic. It is in the end, your choice.
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23-03-2016, 07:24 PM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2016 07:30 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(23-03-2016 07:22 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 07:03 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I'm asking about things you have never directly observed via your sensory perception.
Have you ever seen the pyramids of Egypt & do you believe they exist?
Is your belief rational?
Does your understanding of unseen require the assumption that the thing in question has already been observed by someone else?

The pyramids are not a good example because anyone could travel there at any time to prove said existence.

If the thing I have not directly seen is commonplace, then I may or may not believe it, depending on the teller. What I mean is, my dad was a very honest person, almost to a fault, if he told me he went to the store, I would have believed him. Why? Because he is an honest person and going to the store is a normal every day occurrence. There would be no need for me to go fact checking. If I had a friend who was a pathological liar and lied about everything--I would not necessarily believe them if they said they went to the store since they lie about everything.

Now we add to all of this something so extraordinary. My dad, who is an honest person says that on his way to the store, he was kidnapped by pink aliens and flew to Miami in a disco ball shaped space ship and went swimming in the middle of shark infested waters, but did not get hurt since the pink aliens were able to subdue the sharks by singing Barry Manilow songs to them. I ask him if he has any proof. He says, no sadly the pink aliens flew back to Planet Pink, never to return again.

I would not believe this actually happened to my dad. Instead, I would think he may be suffering from some mental lapse, possibly was joking, I would check to see if it was April 1st, I would think he might have been slipped some kind of drug, these would be the things that I would consider--not the pink alien story. Why wouldn't I believe him because this is such an odd, extraordinary occurrence with zero evidence.

In orienteering through life you need a good BS detector, otherwise you will be easily taken advantage of. You can choose to believe everything other people tell you is truth--or you can weigh the evidence, use logic. It is in the end, your choice.
Isn't the statement "anyone could travel there at any time" a belief in the unseen (by you)?
Did you ever directly see anyone travel there at any time?
Are you using a belief in the unseen (by you) to prove that something can be seen (by you)?

My question is not "if a belief in the commonplace seen by others irational?"
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23-03-2016, 07:26 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
What about shit that can't be seen directly but are inferred like the transcendentals and irrational numbers? Is "belief" in them irrational?

#sigh
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23-03-2016, 07:28 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(23-03-2016 07:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  What about shit that can't be seen directly but are inferred like the transcendental and irrational numbers?
What about them?
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23-03-2016, 07:30 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(23-03-2016 07:24 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 07:22 PM)jennybee Wrote:  The pyramids are not a good example because anyone could travel there at any time to prove said existence.

If the thing I have not directly seen is commonplace, then I may or may not believe it, depending on the teller. What I mean is, my dad was a very honest person, almost to a fault, if he told me he went to the store, I would have believed him. Why? Because he is an honest person and going to the store is a normal every day occurrence. There would be no need for me to go fact checking. If I had a friend who was a pathological liar and lied about everything--I would not necessarily believe them if they said they went to the store since they lie about everything.

Now we add to all of this something so extraordinary. My dad, who is an honest person says that on his way to the store, he was kidnapped by pink aliens and flew to Miami in a disco ball shaped space ship and went swimming in the middle of shark infested waters, but did not get hurt since the pink aliens were able to subdue the sharks by singing Barry Manilow songs to them. I ask him if he has any proof. He says, no sadly the pink aliens flew back to Planet Pink, never to return again.

I would not believe this actually happened to my dad. Instead, I would think he may be suffering from some mental lapse, possibly was joking, I would check to see if it was April 1st, I would think he might have been slipped some kind of drug, these would be the things that I would consider--not the pink alien story. Why wouldn't I believe him because this is such an odd, extraordinary occurrence with zero evidence.

In orienteering through life you need a good BS detector, otherwise you will be easily taken advantage of. You can choose to believe everything other people tell you is truth--or you can weigh the evidence, use logic. It is in the end, your choice.
Isn't the statement "anyone could travel there at any time" a belief in the unseen (by you)?
Are you using a belief in the unseen to prove that something can be seen?

No, because if I truly needed to prove to myself that the pyramids actually exist with my own eyes, I could book a trip there today. Get off plane, see pyramids, go home. Conversely, you can't go to a cloud and visit God.
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23-03-2016, 07:32 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(23-03-2016 07:30 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 07:24 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Isn't the statement "anyone could travel there at any time" a belief in the unseen (by you)?
Are you using a belief in the unseen to prove that something can be seen?

No, because if I truly needed to prove to myself that the pyramids actually exist with my own eyes, I could book a trip there today. Get off plane, see pyramids, go home. Conversely, you can't go to a cloud and visit God.
Are you saying the ability to book a trip to see something you have never seen before proves it's existence?
I don't believe that God exists by the way so I don't see the value of me going to visit God.
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23-03-2016, 07:33 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(23-03-2016 07:32 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 07:30 PM)jennybee Wrote:  No, because if I truly needed to prove to myself that the pyramids actually exist with my own eyes, I could book a trip there today. Get off plane, see pyramids, go home. Conversely, you can't go to a cloud and visit God.
Are you saying the ability to book a trip to see something you have never seen before proves it's existence?

No, I'm saying it at least allows me to analyze data.
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23-03-2016, 07:39 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(23-03-2016 07:28 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 07:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  What about shit that can't be seen directly but are inferred like the transcendental and irrational numbers?
What about them?

Is a belief in the existence of the square root of -1 which can never be realized rational? Or not? It's explanatory convenient. Drinking Beverage

#sigh
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23-03-2016, 07:39 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(23-03-2016 07:33 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 07:32 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Are you saying the ability to book a trip to see something you have never seen before proves it's existence?

No, I'm saying it at least allows me to analyze data.
Ok I thought we were talking about the irrationality of believing in something you have never personally seen.

Are you now saying that it is not the fact that it is unseen that makes it irational but rather the inability to directly/indirectly analyze it? I would agree with you then.
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23-03-2016, 07:43 PM
RE: Is belief in the unseen irrational?
(23-03-2016 07:03 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I'm asking about things you have never directly observed via your sensory perception.

I have never directly observed my own heart via my sensory perception.

My belief that I possess a heart is entirely rational.

I have never personally met Thomas Ligotti.

My belief that Thomas Ligotti exists is entirely rational.

I have never been to France.

My belief that France exists is entirely rational.

I have never been to the pyramids.

My belief that the pyramids exist is entirely rational.

(23-03-2016 07:03 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Does your understanding of unseen require the assumption that the thing in question has already been observed by someone else?

There is at least one word missing here.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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