Is ignorance of God a way of avoiding hell?
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10-10-2012, 06:41 PM
RE: Is ignorance of God a way of avoiding hell?
This is the current interpretation of the extra ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the church there's no salvation) doctrine in the catholic church. So yeah, pretty much that's right, with one clarification, in order for it to work a person should actively search for the truth of god (catholic god of course) so you can't say that you're better not knowing because then you're not searching for the "truth".

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11-10-2012, 09:31 AM
RE: Is ignorance of God a way of avoiding hell?
(10-10-2012 12:11 PM)Anjele Wrote:  If you are one of the elect and you sin (bad sins...as Catholics we called them mortal sins) you can still be sent to hell...yes, no?

No. The elect's sins have been atoned for (limited atonement).

Quote:So if some of the elect do get sent to hell, are there alternates? Or is this where God knows everything ahead of time and his elect are sure to be good enough to get into heaven.

Your implications are that humans would have sway over God. If God chooses someone for salvation, then there isn't anything anyone can do to influence that.

Quote:But, if you are a wonderful, loving person that follows every rule laid out in the Bible and praises God, all the bells and whistles...but you aren't elect, tough crap...no heaven for you, is that how this philosophy works?

Yes.

Quote:Or is this another situation where God doesn't make mistakes...he chose this elect group correctly...since he could see into the future and all?

No. God is omniscient and chose His elect beforehand.


Quote:On the Limbo thing...where are the baby souls now! Damn it...I want to know...it's not like I wasn't forced to pray for them when I was a kid...I'd like to know what happened when they closed Limbo. We gave money, lit candles, and prayed a lot for Limbo babies and the souls of their heathen parents.

As far as my view goes - I believe babies, children, and the mentally handicap are elect. They do not have the mental capacity to understand sin; however, this doesn't, of course, automatically make them elect. I believe this is where God's sovereign grace comes into play.

Now, I could be wrong about this. This is just simply my belief.

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11-10-2012, 09:37 AM
RE: Is ignorance of God a way of avoiding hell?
Thanks for explaining. I still don't get how that's a good thing. If all is predestined, what's the point? That's a hypothetical question, I just don't get the whole concept of being elect.

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11-10-2012, 09:50 AM
RE: Is ignorance of God a way of avoiding hell?
(11-10-2012 09:37 AM)Anjele Wrote:  Thanks for explaining. I still don't get how that's a good thing. If all is predestined, what's the point? That's a hypothetical question, I just don't get the whole concept of being elect.

We, as humans, don't have a point. We live as God would have us live. We perceive as God would have us perceive. Our perception is that of this life.

Our purpose to God and His plan are us being an inheritance and a purpose for the Son. Without humanity, Christ's purpose couldn't be fulfilled.

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11-10-2012, 10:38 AM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2012 10:43 AM by Anjele.)
RE: Is ignorance of God a way of avoiding hell?
That seems terribly sad to me.

I am not being argumentative and I appreciate your explanations, I just can't quite wrap my head around the concepts of being elect and other of the points you address.

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11-10-2012, 10:42 AM
RE: Is ignorance of God a way of avoiding hell?
(11-10-2012 10:38 AM)Anjele Wrote:  That seem terribly sad to me.

I am not being argumentative and I appreciate your explanations, I just can't quite wrap my head around the concepts of being elect and other of the points you address.

Oh I know you're not.

And your sentiments about my belief are shared by many.

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11-10-2012, 09:59 PM
RE: Is ignorance of God a way of avoiding hell?
(10-10-2012 06:41 PM)nach_in Wrote:  This is the current interpretation of the extra ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the church there's no salvation) doctrine in the catholic church. So yeah, pretty much that's right, with one clarification, in order for it to work a person should actively search for the truth of god (catholic god of course) so you can't say that you're better not knowing because then you're not searching for the "truth".

I once read about a truly wonderful explanation by a Jesuit of the "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" doctrine. This is from Walter Kaufmann's The Faith of a Heretic. It's a long quote, but trust me--it's worth it.

Quote:At the end of This is Catholicism (1959), John Walsh, S.J., reprints
an important document which he introduces thus: "All the
principal beliefs of Catholicism are summed up in the Profession of
Faith which is made by converts on their entrance into the Catholic
Church and by all candidates for the priesthood before ordination.
It is a fitting conclusion for this book." Here a great many beliefs
are summarized succinctly in less than three pages. The final paragraph
begins: "This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one
can be saved." A few pages earlier, in the body of the book, we
are also told that "membership in the Catholic Church, the mystical
body of Christ, is the solitary means of salvation. Apart from the
Church, exclusive of it, independently of it, there exists absolutely
no possibility of attaining heaven." This is the kind of forthright,
unequivocal doctrine that at first glance seems to make it utterly unfair
to claim that Catholic theologians, like Protestant theologians,
disregard Jesus' commandment, in the Sermon on the Mount, that
we should let our Yes be Yes, and our No, No; "anything more than
this comes from evil."

Immediately, however, Father Walsh asks: "Does this signify
that all who are not actually members of the Catholic Church will
be lost?" and in conformity with contemporary Catholic doctrine he
replies: "Certainly not." This is explained as follows: "When a
person . . . makes an act of perfect contrition, he must simultaneously
determine, as we saw, to accomplish everything which he
judges necessary to attain salvation. Now since the Catholic Church
is, in fact, the sole means of salvation, a non-Catholic's resolve to
do everything needful to gain heaven is, objectively considered,
exactly equivalent to a resolve to belong to the Catholic Church.
The two resolves automatically merge; one coincides with the other.
A non-Catholic is unaware, certainly, of the identity of the two. . . .
He may never have heard of the Catholic Church. Or he may . . .
be quite indifferent to it. Or . . . he may be quite hostile to it and
consequently would indignantly deny that his desire to please God
coalesced in any way, shape, or fashion with a desire to join
Catholicism. Such subjective misapprehensions on his part would
not alter the objective fact, however. A sincere desire for salvation
coincides necessarily with a desire to belong to the Catholic
Church. . . . Strange as it may seem, therefore, a non-Catholic who
sincerely yearns to do everything necessary for salvation (even when
he believes that one of the requisites for salvation is to condemn
Catholicism!) (John 16:2) is, all unconsciously, longing to be a
Catholic. Now this unconscious longing God recognizes as a substitute
for belonging . . . as the equivalent of real membership." So
the doctrine "still stands: outside the Catholic Church there is no
salvation."

The jaw drops.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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11-10-2012, 10:31 PM
RE: Is ignorance of God a way of avoiding hell?
(11-10-2012 09:59 PM)cufflink Wrote:  
(10-10-2012 06:41 PM)nach_in Wrote:  This is the current interpretation of the extra ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the church there's no salvation) doctrine in the catholic church. So yeah, pretty much that's right, with one clarification, in order for it to work a person should actively search for the truth of god (catholic god of course) so you can't say that you're better not knowing because then you're not searching for the "truth".

I once read about a truly wonderful explanation by a Jesuit of the "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" doctrine. This is from Walter Kaufmann's The Faith of a Heretic. It's a long quote, but trust me--it's worth it.

Quote:At the end of This is Catholicism (1959), John Walsh, S.J., reprints
an important document which he introduces thus: "All the
principal beliefs of Catholicism are summed up in the Profession of
Faith which is made by converts on their entrance into the Catholic
Church and by all candidates for the priesthood before ordination.
It is a fitting conclusion for this book." Here a great many beliefs
are summarized succinctly in less than three pages. The final paragraph
begins: "This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one
can be saved." A few pages earlier, in the body of the book, we
are also told that "membership in the Catholic Church, the mystical
body of Christ, is the solitary means of salvation. Apart from the
Church, exclusive of it, independently of it, there exists absolutely
no possibility of attaining heaven." This is the kind of forthright,
unequivocal doctrine that at first glance seems to make it utterly unfair
to claim that Catholic theologians, like Protestant theologians,
disregard Jesus' commandment, in the Sermon on the Mount, that
we should let our Yes be Yes, and our No, No; "anything more than
this comes from evil."

Immediately, however, Father Walsh asks: "Does this signify
that all who are not actually members of the Catholic Church will
be lost?" and in conformity with contemporary Catholic doctrine he
replies: "Certainly not." This is explained as follows: "When a
person . . . makes an act of perfect contrition, he must simultaneously
determine, as we saw, to accomplish everything which he
judges necessary to attain salvation. Now since the Catholic Church
is, in fact, the sole means of salvation, a non-Catholic's resolve to
do everything needful to gain heaven is, objectively considered,
exactly equivalent to a resolve to belong to the Catholic Church.
The two resolves automatically merge; one coincides with the other.
A non-Catholic is unaware, certainly, of the identity of the two. . . .
He may never have heard of the Catholic Church. Or he may . . .
be quite indifferent to it. Or . . . he may be quite hostile to it and
consequently would indignantly deny that his desire to please God
coalesced in any way, shape, or fashion with a desire to join
Catholicism. Such subjective misapprehensions on his part would
not alter the objective fact, however. A sincere desire for salvation
coincides necessarily with a desire to belong to the Catholic
Church. . . . Strange as it may seem, therefore, a non-Catholic who
sincerely yearns to do everything necessary for salvation (even when
he believes that one of the requisites for salvation is to condemn
Catholicism!) (John 16:2) is, all unconsciously, longing to be a
Catholic. Now this unconscious longing God recognizes as a substitute
for belonging . . . as the equivalent of real membership." So
the doctrine "still stands: outside the Catholic Church there is no
salvation."

The jaw drops.

Thanks for that, (I think Dodgy ). It's gonna fit perfectly into a part of something I'm writing on "linguistic integrity". Weeping

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Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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11-10-2012, 11:52 PM
RE: Is ignorance of God a way of avoiding hell?
(11-10-2012 10:31 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  . . . something I'm writing on "linguistic integrity".

Sounds like something I'd like to read. Smile

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12-10-2012, 01:02 AM
RE: Is ignorance of God a way of avoiding hell?
(11-10-2012 09:59 PM)cufflink Wrote:  
(10-10-2012 06:41 PM)nach_in Wrote:  This is the current interpretation of the extra ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the church there's no salvation) doctrine in the catholic church. So yeah, pretty much that's right, with one clarification, in order for it to work a person should actively search for the truth of god (catholic god of course) so you can't say that you're better not knowing because then you're not searching for the "truth".

I once read about a truly wonderful explanation by a Jesuit of the "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" doctrine. This is from Walter Kaufmann's The Faith of a Heretic. It's a long quote, but trust me--it's worth it.

Quote:At the end of This is Catholicism (1959), John Walsh, S.J., reprints
an important document which he introduces thus: "All the
principal beliefs of Catholicism are summed up in the Profession of
Faith which is made by converts on their entrance into the Catholic
Church and by all candidates for the priesthood before ordination.
It is a fitting conclusion for this book." Here a great many beliefs
are summarized succinctly in less than three pages. The final paragraph
begins: "This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one
can be saved." A few pages earlier, in the body of the book, we
are also told that "membership in the Catholic Church, the mystical
body of Christ, is the solitary means of salvation. Apart from the
Church, exclusive of it, independently of it, there exists absolutely
no possibility of attaining heaven." This is the kind of forthright,
unequivocal doctrine that at first glance seems to make it utterly unfair
to claim that Catholic theologians, like Protestant theologians,
disregard Jesus' commandment, in the Sermon on the Mount, that
we should let our Yes be Yes, and our No, No; "anything more than
this comes from evil."

Immediately, however, Father Walsh asks: "Does this signify
that all who are not actually members of the Catholic Church will
be lost?" and in conformity with contemporary Catholic doctrine he
replies: "Certainly not." This is explained as follows: "When a
person . . . makes an act of perfect contrition, he must simultaneously
determine, as we saw, to accomplish everything which he
judges necessary to attain salvation. Now since the Catholic Church
is, in fact, the sole means of salvation, a non-Catholic's resolve to
do everything needful to gain heaven is, objectively considered,
exactly equivalent to a resolve to belong to the Catholic Church.
The two resolves automatically merge; one coincides with the other.
A non-Catholic is unaware, certainly, of the identity of the two. . . .
He may never have heard of the Catholic Church. Or he may . . .
be quite indifferent to it. Or . . . he may be quite hostile to it and
consequently would indignantly deny that his desire to please God
coalesced in any way, shape, or fashion with a desire to join
Catholicism. Such subjective misapprehensions on his part would
not alter the objective fact, however. A sincere desire for salvation
coincides necessarily with a desire to belong to the Catholic
Church. . . . Strange as it may seem, therefore, a non-Catholic who
sincerely yearns to do everything necessary for salvation (even when
he believes that one of the requisites for salvation is to condemn
Catholicism!) (John 16:2) is, all unconsciously, longing to be a
Catholic. Now this unconscious longing God recognizes as a substitute
for belonging . . . as the equivalent of real membership." So
the doctrine "still stands: outside the Catholic Church there is no
salvation."

The jaw drops.

I need a facepalm emoticon Hobo

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