Is incest immoral?
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30-11-2014, 12:02 PM
RE: Is incest immoral?
(30-11-2014 11:20 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(29-11-2014 06:20 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I think a topic of this nature doesn't go very far without beyond whatever someone thinks, it's a matter of where they draw lines in the sand on morality; what they constitute as morality.

Incest is one thing, Incest+Procreation is another.

How does one separate incest from molestation? Brothers have diddled with their little sisters over the years. Yes, this is molesting but is it also incest/

The same way we distinguish any ind of regular sex from molestation and rape. The incest we are talking about - both parties are consenting adults, they just happen to be related.

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30-11-2014, 01:58 PM
RE: Is incest immoral?
(30-11-2014 08:52 AM)Colourcraze Wrote:  My sister and I have a second base incestuous relationship. It's bonding. Tongue

You know the drill - pics or it didn't happen. Drinking Beverage

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30-11-2014, 02:48 PM
RE: Is incest immoral?
(30-11-2014 12:02 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  
(30-11-2014 11:20 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  How does one separate incest from molestation? Brothers have diddled with their little sisters over the years. Yes, this is molesting but is it also incest/

The same way we distinguish any ind of regular sex from molestation and rape. The incest we are talking about - both parties are consenting adults, they just happen to be related.

In the Hapsburg family tree that I posted on page 3 there were many cases of uncles marrying nieces and first cousins marrying each other. Of course in those days and in royal families neither party was really, truly consenting as it was more of a political union. The result was horrible.

This is an abstract a researcher published who used the Hapsburgs as an interesting look at genes.


Abstract

The kings of the Spanish Habsburg dynasty (1516–1700) frequently married close relatives in such a way that uncle-niece, first cousins and other consanguineous unions were prevalent in that dynasty. In the historical literature, it has been suggested that inbreeding was a major cause responsible for the extinction of the dynasty when the king Charles II, physically and mentally disabled, died in 1700 and no children were born from his two marriages, but this hypothesis has not been examined from a genetic perspective. In this article, this hypothesis is checked by computing the inbreeding coefficient (F) of the Spanish Habsburg kings from an extended pedigree up to 16 generations in depth and involving more than 3,000 individuals. The inbreeding coefficient of the Spanish Habsburg kings increased strongly along generations from 0.025 for king Philip I, the founder of the dynasty, to 0.254 for Charles II and several members of the dynasty had inbreeding coefficients higher than 0.20. In addition to inbreeding due to unions between close relatives, ancestral inbreeding from multiple remote ancestors makes a substantial contribution to the inbreeding coefficient of most kings. A statistically significant inbreeding depression for survival to 10 years is detected in the progenies of the Spanish Habsburg kings. The results indicate that inbreeding at the level of first cousin (F = 0.0625) exerted an adverse effect on survival of 17.8%±12.3. It is speculated that the simultaneous occurrence in Charles II (F = 0.254) of two different genetic disorders: combined pituitary hormone deficiency and distal renal tubular acidosis, determined by recessive alleles at two unlinked loci, could explain most of the complex clinical profile of this king, including his impotence/infertility which in last instance led to the extinction of the dynasty.

Here's the link if anyone is interested. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ado...ne.0005174

I often wonder if the Amish have any genetic problems but the population might be large enough to not have inbreeding problems. I haven't heard about any but maybe the lack of fresh blood has made them generally stupid. They don't seem like they're the sharpest tools in the Amish shed. One brick short of a load, one card short of a deck ...........

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
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Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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01-12-2014, 12:12 AM
RE: Is incest immoral?
The Amish, Mennonite and Hutterite Genetic Disorder Database might keep you entertained.
Quote:The founder effect is quite pronounced in Anabaptist populations. For example, most of the more than 40,000 Hutterites in North America can trace their ancestry back to a group of 89 founding members.
Gasp

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01-12-2014, 01:08 AM
RE: Is incest immoral?
Ignoring for the moment the issue of offspring, so that we don't produce horrors like King Charlie the Drooler, the concept of incest still raises serious ethical red flags.

The most significant of these is the term "two consenting adults". If we accept that anything two consenting adults wish to do in privacy is ethical but that anything an adult does with or to a minor may constitute some form of child abuse we run into the problem that children grow up to become one of the "consenting" parties. Grooming of children by adults that they are genetically preprogrammed to trust produces "consenting" adults via an instrument that I would have little difficulty placing in the child abuse category.

This phenomenon is not restricted to incest. Our world is replete with tragic examples of girls raised from infancy to marry to much older men. One shudders at what the world might have been like had the consequences of incest to the offspring not been so blindingly obvious to mainstream religions.

On a more pragmatic note, we can't ignore the danger to the offspring as the OP suggests. While it's useful for the discussion at hand to momentarily ignore this obvious argument against incest we must couldn't do so in any practical sense. As we try to pound into the heads of Fundamentalists everywhere, no form of contraception is infallible. Given the near certainty of genetic disaster for the offspring, even very low levels of contraception failure become significant.

I personally don't expect incest become an acceptable practice and suspect that we as a species have a genetically preprogrammed squick to inhibit this behavior.

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01-12-2014, 03:04 AM
RE: Is incest immoral?
(01-12-2014 01:08 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Ignoring for the moment the issue of offspring, so that we don't produce horrors like King Charlie the Drooler, the concept of incest still raises serious ethical red flags.

The most significant of these is the term "two consenting adults". If we accept that anything two consenting adults wish to do in privacy is ethical but that anything an adult does with or to a minor may constitute some form of child abuse we run into the problem that children grow up to become one of the "consenting" parties. Grooming of children by adults that they are genetically preprogrammed to trust produces "consenting" adults via an instrument that I would have little difficulty placing in the child abuse category.

This phenomenon is not restricted to incest. Our world is replete with tragic examples of girls raised from infancy to marry to much older men. One shudders at what the world might have been like had the consequences of incest to the offspring not been so blindingly obvious to mainstream religions.

On a more pragmatic note, we can't ignore the danger to the offspring as the OP suggests. While it's useful for the discussion at hand to momentarily ignore this obvious argument against incest we must couldn't do so in any practical sense. As we try to pound into the heads of Fundamentalists everywhere, no form of contraception is infallible. Given the near certainty of genetic disaster for the offspring, even very low levels of contraception failure become significant.

I personally don't expect incest become an acceptable practice and suspect that we as a species have a genetically preprogrammed squick to inhibit this behavior.

I think I've said this one before in another thread about incest. Children can be raised to believe/do anything. It's not just an issue of incest. Where do you draw the line?

As for contraception, there is always the choice of abortion (given, of course, that the couple is making an effort to maximize contraception).
Have you heard about thalassemia? If both parents are carriers, the child has a very high chance of having serious health problems in life. Should we consider such couples "unethical"?

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01-12-2014, 03:49 AM
RE: Is incest immoral?
(01-12-2014 01:08 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  ... no form of contraception is infallible.
Vasectomies are damned close, particularly if a post operation examination for sperm in the semen reveals none.

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01-12-2014, 06:46 AM
RE: Is incest immoral?
Immoral? Something is immoral only if the social belief system says it is. Unless you believe in "absolute morality" in which case you're a theist or a fucking retarded Platonist who believes in that kind of shit.

We are what our societies make us. If your society says "incest is icky" then you will likely believe that.
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01-12-2014, 11:32 AM
RE: Is incest immoral?
(01-12-2014 06:46 AM)Rik Wrote:  Immoral? Something is immoral only if the social belief system says it is. Unless you believe in "absolute morality" in which case you're a theist or a fucking retarded Platonist who believes in that kind of shit.

We are what our societies make us. If your society says "incest is icky" then you will likely believe that.

Ye ok pal

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01-12-2014, 11:40 AM
RE: Is incest immoral?
(01-12-2014 11:32 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 06:46 AM)Rik Wrote:  Immoral? Something is immoral only if the social belief system says it is. Unless you believe in "absolute morality" in which case you're a theist or a fucking retarded Platonist who believes in that kind of shit.

We are what our societies make us. If your society says "incest is icky" then you will likely believe that.

Ye ok pal

I'm glad you agree with that as it makes complete sense. Thumbsup

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