Is incest immoral?
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01-12-2014, 11:43 AM
RE: Is incest immoral?
(01-12-2014 11:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 11:32 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  Ye ok pal

I'm glad you agree with that as it makes complete sense. Thumbsup

I just found it unnecessary as it was a reason that I was asking for other peoples opinions Tongue

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01-12-2014, 12:35 PM
RE: Is incest immoral?
(01-12-2014 11:43 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 11:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  I'm glad you agree with that as it makes complete sense. Thumbsup

I just found it unnecessary as it was a reason that I was asking for other peoples opinions Tongue

Ye ok pal

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01-12-2014, 01:18 PM
RE: Is incest immoral?
(28-11-2014 10:20 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  
(28-11-2014 10:03 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  The Hapsburg Jaw and their family tree might give you pause. This is the Spanish royal family tree with several loops in the tree.

[Image: i-b86ca8c0a0a89bc5b2046aa047a2eef9-777px...undo80.png]

An article about the inner breeding that went on and some scientific info.

http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2009/04/14/...ll-of-the/

And the results of that inner breeding.

[Image: 399093.jpg]

[Image: jaw.jpg]

The Egyptians did the same thing. And here's what they ended up with.....

[Image: king-tut-recreation.jpg]

In all fairness, those examples are after generations of strongly suggested incest, right?

I think most people's points in here are.. The occasional instance if incest isn't likely to cause major issues, and if legalized, wouldn't make everyone suddenly want to have sex with members of their families.

Thank you, that's exactly what I was trying to say.

To go opposite tarty's sameness thing, there's an ick factor when it comes to sleeping with people you were raised close to as a child regardless of biological relationship. Incest is a pretty rare occurrence and in most cases it would just be a one time thing that wouldn't be repeated by the offspring.

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01-12-2014, 02:21 PM
RE: Is incest immoral?
(01-12-2014 01:18 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Incest is a pretty rare occurrence and in most cases it would just be a one time thing that wouldn't be repeated by the offspring.
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01-12-2014, 02:48 PM
RE: Is incest immoral?
(01-12-2014 03:04 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 01:08 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Ignoring for the moment the issue of offspring, so that we don't produce horrors like King Charlie the Drooler, the concept of incest still raises serious ethical red flags.

The most significant of these is the term "two consenting adults". If we accept that anything two consenting adults wish to do in privacy is ethical but that anything an adult does with or to a minor may constitute some form of child abuse we run into the problem that children grow up to become one of the "consenting" parties. Grooming of children by adults that they are genetically preprogrammed to trust produces "consenting" adults via an instrument that I would have little difficulty placing in the child abuse category.

This phenomenon is not restricted to incest. Our world is replete with tragic examples of girls raised from infancy to marry to much older men. One shudders at what the world might have been like had the consequences of incest to the offspring not been so blindingly obvious to mainstream religions.

On a more pragmatic note, we can't ignore the danger to the offspring as the OP suggests. While it's useful for the discussion at hand to momentarily ignore this obvious argument against incest we must couldn't do so in any practical sense. As we try to pound into the heads of Fundamentalists everywhere, no form of contraception is infallible. Given the near certainty of genetic disaster for the offspring, even very low levels of contraception failure become significant.

I personally don't expect incest become an acceptable practice and suspect that we as a species have a genetically preprogrammed squick to inhibit this behavior.

I think I've said this one before in another thread about incest. Children can be raised to believe/do anything. It's not just an issue of incest. Where do you draw the line?

As you say, children can and have been raised to do most anything. Child soldiers for example. As with most issues I doubt that you can draw a hard and fast "line". A reasonable rule of thumb might be (1) Is the child likely to do this of their own initiative (probably not) and (2) Is this likely to be harmful to the child (probably).

(01-12-2014 03:04 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  As for contraception, there is always the choice of abortion (given, of course, that the couple is making an effort to maximize contraception).

It is however, as you correctly state, a choice. You just know that somebody, somewhere, and sooner rather than later, will actively try and have offspring this way. We don't need to speculate, we know that it has happened in spite of the taboo against it. And then we find ourselves in a much nastier ethical mire of what society may and may not force a parent to do when we know for a certainty that they're destroying their children's lives before they ever get a chance to start.

Much simpler and cleaner to acknowledge that the relatively small benefits that might be found by the few who would enjoy this if everybody acted like sane and rational adults are vastly outmatched by the perils that will be recognized when people are neither sane, rational nor adult.

(01-12-2014 03:04 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  Have you heard about thalassemia? If both parents are carriers, the child has a very high chance of having serious health problems in life. Should we consider such couples "unethical"?

I'm not familiar with that particular disorder but I'm going to assume that it's your standard Mendelian autosomal recessive? If so it has lots of friends, many of them truly horrific. If both parents are carriers then any potential offspring have 1 in 4 odds of inheriting the disease. Some people might consider this unethical. Some opt not to have children. I won't pretend to know.

By contrast, the odds of offspring from incestuous relations having genetic disorders approaches unity. It isn't just simple recessive disorders either, though they're terrifying enough. You also get exaggeration of every one of the "spectrum" disorders. Check the link I posted for Charles II of Spain. He suffered from consanguinuity similar to that of a sibling-sibling union. That's what you can expect. Parent-child unions are much worse. These children have no chance.

I've lived in remote communities where this actually happens. I've seen the effects. Let me return your question to you. Would you consider it ethical for a mother to drink herself to a stupor every night of her pregnancy, knowing what FAS is and does? That's effectively what you're looking at.

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01-12-2014, 02:52 PM
RE: Is incest immoral?
I don't know, I think family is hard enough to deal with just from lending money now and then. Throwing sex into the mix you're just asking for more trouble. Plus, it's nice to know there's someone in your life who loves you and ISN'T trying to get in your pants.
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