Is it a mere coincidence that all religions are Faith based
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23-02-2014, 09:59 PM
RE: Is it a mere coincidence that all religions are Faith based
I find it distressing that very few apologetics address faith correctly. No matter what the hell you try and put faith as, we are in a world, in a body, with certain senses, that makes anything you do without evidence risk for serious self delusion. We could easily all be deluded about our reality but we must work with what we have based on the consensual experiences we are limited to working with.

But the argument for faith is that "we have faith in everything!" as if we all have faith without evidence, as if countless tests haven't gone into shit like the placebo effect. Things like that forces us as people to walk the shaky plank of knowledge we are on, lit by a fire whose brightness our knowledge controls. We don't know where the hell the next step may lead us until we can make the light brighter and build the bridge to stretch further, but that's a journey where faith isn't needed, and empiricism is our fuel.

Evidence precedes faith, period. Or we can say goodbye to that shaky bridge we're on (and trying to build up) and say hello to literally no other alternative.

It's only a debate if both parties are willing to let each other's opinions change their own.
If you aren't willing to change in light of learning more about what you fight for, what the hell are you doing expecting the other party to want to change?
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23-02-2014, 10:03 PM
RE: Is it a mere coincidence that all religions are Faith based
(23-02-2014 09:50 PM)Logisch Wrote:  
(23-02-2014 09:38 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  From what i know about Buddhism it is an offshoot of Hinduism which sure doesn't believe in God or any anthropomorphic deity for that matter but it does believe in the idea of Reincarnation,spirits and all the supernatural stuff which basically kinda requires blind faith and wishful thinking.

I've never heard any of my buddhist friends talk about reincarnation in any similar ways of hinduism. The only way I was told from a friend was, "We begin as matter in the universe and someday we will go back to the same... and whether your matter gets used by another organism or you end up becoming star stuff again is none of your choice, but you'll end up getting re-used by it somehow, someway." but no literal "you become a butterfly, isn't that neat!" crap.

Which speaking from a scientific point of view... it's pretty accurate. You do start as energy and matter. At some point you're human. You die, and you get reused by other organism, or at some point when the sun swells up, you'll become a planetary part of the big BBQ and reused when the sun eventually turns into a white dwarf and eventually goes supernova when all the resources are used up by it. At which point you get spread all over the place, likely as just a bunch of dust and shit and probably will stay that way.

SO appreciate being alive... while you can. Evil_monster

Yes that was my understanding of Buddhism's view of reincarnation. Most Buddhist people I know are mostly atheist and certainly don't seem to rely on faith as part of their belief. Many I know even question if the Buddha wasn't more myth than real. They don't really believe the story to be a literal truth but more of an example.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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23-02-2014, 10:07 PM
RE: Is it a mere coincidence that all religions are Faith based
(23-02-2014 09:50 PM)Logisch Wrote:  The only way I was told from a friend was, "We begin as matter in the universe and someday we will go back to the same... and whether your matter gets used by another organism or you end up becoming star stuff again
I'm sorry but i don't follow this guy's logic.. how the fuck is this reincarnation? this is basically just DEATH not reincarnation! you could say that its a poetic view of life but no way in hell is this "Reincarnation".

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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23-02-2014, 10:08 PM
RE: Is it a mere coincidence that all religions are Faith based
(23-02-2014 10:03 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(23-02-2014 09:50 PM)Logisch Wrote:  I've never heard any of my buddhist friends talk about reincarnation in any similar ways of hinduism. The only way I was told from a friend was, "We begin as matter in the universe and someday we will go back to the same... and whether your matter gets used by another organism or you end up becoming star stuff again is none of your choice, but you'll end up getting re-used by it somehow, someway." but no literal "you become a butterfly, isn't that neat!" crap.

Which speaking from a scientific point of view... it's pretty accurate. You do start as energy and matter. At some point you're human. You die, and you get reused by other organism, or at some point when the sun swells up, you'll become a planetary part of the big BBQ and reused when the sun eventually turns into a white dwarf and eventually goes supernova when all the resources are used up by it. At which point you get spread all over the place, likely as just a bunch of dust and shit and probably will stay that way.

SO appreciate being alive... while you can. Evil_monster

Yes that was my understanding of Buddhism's view of reincarnation. Most Buddhist people I know are mostly atheist and certainly don't seem to rely on faith as part of their belief. Many I know even question if the Buddha wasn't more myth than real. They don't really believe the story to be a literal truth but more of an example.

That is my understanding as well. I looked into it back when I went through my "how do I know which religion to choose?" phase before I ended up being an atheist lol. I tolerate my buddhist friends probably better than any other friends who follow a religion of any kind, I certainly don't mind them.

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23-02-2014, 10:20 PM
RE: Is it a mere coincidence that all religions are Faith based
(23-02-2014 10:07 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(23-02-2014 09:50 PM)Logisch Wrote:  The only way I was told from a friend was, "We begin as matter in the universe and someday we will go back to the same... and whether your matter gets used by another organism or you end up becoming star stuff again
I'm sorry but i don't follow this guy's logic.. how the fuck is this reincarnation? this is basically just DEATH not reincarnation! you could say that its a poetic view of life but no way in hell is this "Reincarnation".

Quote:the belief that the soul, upon death of the body, comes back to earth in another body or form.

Again, I have heard of none of them use the term "reincarnation" as you likely intend it. As Momsurroundedbyboys mentioned, few seem to use it from a "spiritual" point and more of a literal "re-use."

Are you sure you aren't thinking of Taoism? Taoism has various "souls" and "ways to be reincarnated" as most taoism teachings I have seen hint towards a spiritual place where spirits are all among us and unseen and able to help others, or potentially life energy reincarnated into another form. In other words a form of "eternal spiritual existence"...

Re: Buddhism and reincarnation
http://buddhism.about.com/od/karmaandreb...nation.htm

Not defending it personally as I don't directly follow it, but I think understanding what one is speaking about is important. I find it entertaining that we can all quote the bible and tell christians how incorrect they are about their set of beliefs, but as soon as we end up on the subject of other religions or beliefs many have done little to no searching to get the facts straight (well, facts about what they seem to "believe" anyway). If you get what I mean.

Official ordained minister of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Please pm me with prayer requests to his noodly goodness. Remember, he boiled for your sins and loves you. Carbo Diem! RAmen.
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23-02-2014, 10:49 PM
RE: Is it a mere coincidence that all religions are Faith based
Buddhism sucks.
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23-02-2014, 10:59 PM
Is it a mere coincidence that all religions are Faith based
(23-02-2014 08:56 PM)Logisch Wrote:  
(23-02-2014 08:54 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I don't know if Buddhism is based so much on faith.

Since there isn't a deity to believe in and what not... yeah that makes it sorta hard. Although there's some woo pedaling with all the "spirituality" stuff my buddhist friends talk about here and there, but I get what you're saying.

There are variations, and folk Buddhism is very much a religion. Buddhism as moral teachings and a way of life to minimize suffering for all including the self is compatible with other "Ways" that in their basic framework are compatible with secular life: Taoism is another example, Zen Buddhism can be followed as a framework without the religious underpinnings.

Buddhism, from historic accounts, was never intended to be followed as a religion. Siddhartha specifically instructed his followers not to write down anything he said, fearing it would become as dogmatic as Hinduism, and loose the message through doctrine.

The basic metaphorical teachings of Jesus are not unlike early Buddhism.

Re: the above post, conscious reincarnation of a soul is a mostly western spin on eastern reincarnation. Most eastern traditions view reincarnation as a "spark" of the divine, passed from generation to generation.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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23-02-2014, 11:04 PM
RE: Is it a mere coincidence that all religions are Faith based
(23-02-2014 10:59 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(23-02-2014 08:56 PM)Logisch Wrote:  Since there isn't a deity to believe in and what not... yeah that makes it sorta hard. Although there's some woo pedaling with all the "spirituality" stuff my buddhist friends talk about here and there, but I get what you're saying.

There are variations, and folk Buddhism is very much a religion. Buddhism as moral teachings and a way of life to minimize suffering for all including the self is compatible with other "Ways" that in their basic framework are compatible with secular life: Taoism is another example, Zen Buddhism can be followed as a framework without the religious underpinnings.

Buddhism, from historic accounts, was never intended to be followed as a religion. Siddhartha specifically instructed his followers not to write down anything he said, fearing it would become as dogmatic as Hinduism, and loose the message through doctrine.

The basic metaphorical teachings of Jesus are not unlike early Buddhism.

Re: the above post, conscious reincarnation of a soul is a mostly western spin on eastern reincarnation. Most eastern traditions view reincarnation as a "spark" of the divine, passed from generation to generation.

Yeah and one of the teachings in buddhism is that to stop suffering you must stop wanting things. Basically we all should do absolutely nothing and live like this. Fuck it.
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23-02-2014, 11:11 PM
RE: Is it a mere coincidence that all religions are Faith based
(23-02-2014 10:07 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(23-02-2014 09:50 PM)Logisch Wrote:  The only way I was told from a friend was, "We begin as matter in the universe and someday we will go back to the same... and whether your matter gets used by another organism or you end up becoming star stuff again
I'm sorry but i don't follow this guy's logic.. how the fuck is this reincarnation? this is basically just DEATH not reincarnation! you could say that its a poetic view of life but no way in hell is this "Reincarnation".

My friend said it was more like recycling. It's not at all meant to be reincarnation the way other religions describe it.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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23-02-2014, 11:13 PM
RE: Is it a mere coincidence that all religions are Faith based
(23-02-2014 11:11 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(23-02-2014 10:07 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  I'm sorry but i don't follow this guy's logic.. how the fuck is this reincarnation? this is basically just DEATH not reincarnation! you could say that its a poetic view of life but no way in hell is this "Reincarnation".

My friend said it was more like recycling. It's not at all meant to be reincarnation the way other religions describe it.

Well I talked to buddhists and they say reincarnation is rebirth. Although you can be not just human but animal insect etc so your friend is inventing some new religion already.
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