Poll: Is it good to debate creationist
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Is it a waste of time debating creationist
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09-03-2014, 03:07 PM
RE: Is it a waste of time debating creationist
Quote:Agnostic0000 said:
What leads you to assert that
it's immoral and destructive to society when inflicted on children?

How do you know
1) what is immoral?
2) it is immoral?
3) it is destructive?
4) it is an infliction?
5) children in particular are harmed?

How do you know
1) what is immoral?

Morality is generally concerned with rules for social well being and normative actions people should take to maintain a state of well being or social flourishing (or individual in some cases such as some virtue ethics principles).
This would cover many of the rational ethical philosophies both from today and the past (virtue ethics, deontology, utalitarianism etc).
Even the morality of Christianity and Islam was stripped and altered/adapted from moral philosophies of Aristotle or Plato for example (consider Thomism & Augustinian Christianity as an example adopting the moral philosophies from earlier pre-christian Greeks) We know that Divine command theory as a moral system is bankrupt (eg from Euthyphro style dialogue)

Hence we know that telling lies and spreading falsehood is immoral in most cases as a society cannot flourish under such circumstances (unless there is a double effect for a greater purpose eg lying to save an innocent person being taken by the Gestapo type examples) The details can be debated but general principles are well established and known.

2) it is immoral?
Teaching creationism is lying and deceiving people and stunts their knowledge of the world. I consider this immoral because it spreads ignorance and this can adversely effect both society as a whole and the individuals who become ignorant.
Also see below because what is immoral can become destructive.

3) it is destructive?
Yes.
This does however depend on the context of how creationism is taught.
A modern reformed church may believe the creation story is just allegories & metaphors and pick n' mix what is beneficial hence it is probably not destructive (except by giving legitimacy to the literalism fundamentalists)
However genuine creationism with the whole garden of Eden and flood story etc IS very destructive on many levels.
Just consider the Noah story - if things dont go well just kill the lot including all the children and babies to fix the world and then its still messed up after Gods great genocides. Original Sin, eternal hell's, submission to a fascist dictator God who's moral system is bankrupt....these are quite destructive.
On a larger scale people indoctrinated with anti-science and pseudoscience can cause great harm eg AIDS denialism flourishes in areas indoctrinated by christian or other irrational fundamentalism's. Ignorance ends up killing people for nothing other than irrational religious beliefs and "faith"- consider Jehovah witnesses refusing a child life saving blood transfusions.

4) it is an infliction?
Yes
Leads to people becoming irrational and incapable of engaging and changing their minds in response to evidence. People then feel justified spreading "faith" and ignoring evidence and the easiest people to inflict are children who have not yet developed their critical reasoning faculties. Once critical reasoning faculties have been shut down - the cult doctrines spread like infection. (critical rational reasoning is the inoculation against this)


5) children in particular are harmed?

Children have not developed their critical thinking capacities and vulnerable to believe all sorts of myths and legends - some which can be harmful as stated above.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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09-03-2014, 06:22 PM
RE: Is it a waste of time debating creationist
I used to think it was a waste of time to "debate" creationists, but maybe you plant a seed and it grows and they start questioning instead of accepting the brainwashed bs of their religion. And just maybe you could help someone seek (and find) real truth.

There's an upside even though debating creationists can be irritating.
Big Grin

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09-03-2014, 06:23 PM
RE: Is it a waste of time debating creationist
(09-03-2014 06:22 PM)Deidre32 Wrote:  I used to think it was a waste of time to "debate" creationists, but maybe you plant a seed and it grows and they start questioning instead of accepting the brainwashed bs of their religion. And just maybe you could help someone seek (and find) real truth.

There's an upside even though debating creationists can be irritating.
Big Grin

Welcome to DieEvil_monster. Great observation by the way. Same thing happened to me when i was a christian.

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09-03-2014, 06:34 PM
RE: Is it a waste of time debating creationist
(09-03-2014 06:23 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 06:22 PM)Deidre32 Wrote:  I used to think it was a waste of time to "debate" creationists, but maybe you plant a seed and it grows and they start questioning instead of accepting the brainwashed bs of their religion. And just maybe you could help someone seek (and find) real truth.

There's an upside even though debating creationists can be irritating.
Big Grin

Welcome to DieEvil_monster. Great observation by the way. Same thing happened to me when i was a christian.

Hey thanks! Big Grin
When I considered myself a Christian, I never really bought the "creation story" of Genesis. A number of denominations teach that it's not a literal translation but more of a metaphor.

That's code for ...oh shit, Darwin came along and now we have to back pedal and we can't tell people...the Bible is nonsense.

"We" meaning Church leaders. Genesis was taught as a literal interpretation of how the universe and man came into existence until Darwin came on the scene.

Darwin was a Christian at one time, too.

Anyway! Big Grin

The beauty of the heart, is the lasting beauty. - Rumi Heart
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09-03-2014, 07:14 PM
RE: Is it a waste of time debating creationist
(09-03-2014 06:34 PM)Deidre32 Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 06:23 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Welcome to DieEvil_monster. Great observation by the way. Same thing happened to me when i was a christian.

Hey thanks! Big Grin
When I considered myself a Christian, I never really bought the "creation story" of Genesis. A number of denominations teach that it's not a literal translation but more of a metaphor.

That's code for ...oh shit, Darwin came along and now we have to back pedal and we can't tell people...the Bible is nonsense.

"We" meaning Church leaders. Genesis was taught as a literal interpretation of how the universe and man came into existence until Darwin came on the scene.

Darwin was a Christian at one time, too.

Anyway! Big Grin

I really got away I was raised to be either a black hebrew isrealite on my dads side or a Protastant christan on my moms. I escaped from both and got away from the slavery called religion.

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09-03-2014, 07:38 PM
RE: Is it a waste of time debating creationist
(08-03-2014 10:27 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Are they really worth debating or should you just let creationism die in silence.

I dont debate them on the hope of conversion, why bother, let them bang their head against a mythical book...I do it for those that watch the debate, in the hope of planting seeds of doubt, in which hopefully they read something I say, or I spark an idea and they go research it, and that begins the path to truth. If I get one person a day to do that, it was all worthwhile.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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10-03-2014, 10:07 AM
RE: Is it a waste of time debating creationist
Your poll and your title are opposite. Threw me for a loop at first.

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